Too good to be true?

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Burning gasoline to generate electricity is 35 % efficient at best, so there is that.
Yeah, have to calculate cost-per-mile based upon electricity delivery rates vs. petrol costs in your area. When I was in S.F. Bay Area, my Tesla got cost-per-mile equivalent to 20mpg petrol automobile. Now that I'm in Phoenix area with lower power-costs, I get cost-per-mile equivalent to 30mpg auto. That's with off-peak home-charging only too. Would be better, but petrol costs less here too. If I use any public stations for charging, costs goes up dramatically! Only those in boonies of U.S. with dirt-cheap power will actually realise cost-savings touted in marketing spiel.

Meanwhile, my sister-in-law's Prius gets cost-per-mile equivalent to 50mpg auto.

For example, let's compare our areas:

1696843990783.png

In U.S. dollars with 0.73 exchange-rate. Significantly lower cost of electricity in your area (1/2 of cheapest price available in U.S.) makes EV much more attractive deal. That's equivalent to paying $31.523/gal for petrol in San Francisco! :eek:
 
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Andrew Shadow

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Significantly lower cost of electricity in your area (1/2 of cheapest price available in U.S.)
5.4 cents per Kwh seems low for Ontario electrical rates from what I have heard. Maybe some of the Ontario guys will confirm or correct.
 
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5.4 cents per Kwh seems low for Ontario electrical rates from what I have heard. Maybe some of the Ontario guys will confirm or correct.
I used weekday Off-Peak 7pm+ rates here:


0.074 CAD * 0.73 fx = 0.054/kwh USD

Didn't take weighted average with Utra-Low Overnight 11pm+ rates of 0.024 CAD which would make contrast even more dramatic.
 

Gerhard

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5.4 cents per Kwh seems low for Ontario electrical rates from what I have heard. Maybe some of the Ontario guys will confirm or correct.
I think on our hydro bill 7 pm to 7 am is 7.1 cents per kWh and during peak time it is 16 cents and there is a shoulder period where the rate is somewhere in between. He converted all values to US currency which is fair to get a realistic comparison. To account for extra charges on the bill I usually calculate 10 cents off peak and 20 cents per kWh peak cost
Electric cars are much more efficient than gas, mine uses about 14 kWh per 100 km under ideal conditions and about 20 kWh per 100 km in cold miserable conditions, so at the worst consumption using the highest home electric rate it would cost $4.00 for 100 km. In comparison Cherie’s VW uses about 8 litres to travel 100 km which costs $12.00 today.
 

Andrew Shadow

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He converted all values to US currency which is fair to get a realistic comparison.
I completely overlooked that, makes more sense after the conversion.

Using the same conversion factor of 0.73, my current rate in Quebec is 4.54 cents CAD/3.31 cents USD per Kwh at all times 12 months a years as long as the outside temperature is above -13°C/9°F. If the outside temperature is below -12°C/10°F, I pay a premium rate of 26.56 cents CAD/19.39 cents USD per Kwh.

The dual rate is because I am on a dual energy program with two rates governed by the above outside temperatures. The reality is that the amount of time that the outside temperature remains below -12°C/10°F over the course of the winter is not enough to have any significant influence on the average rate over an entire 12 month period. The overall average rate that I paid over the 12 months of 2022, including all access fees, taxes, etc., was 6.2 cents CAD/4.5 cents USD per Kwh.

Gasoline is currently around $1.60 CAD per litre. That works out to about $4.42 USD per US gallon.

Because of the low electricity rates here, and because of very significant government subsidies to purchase them, electric vehicles are becoming more common.
 
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Over the years one thing has been consistent, new ideas are generally met with skepticism, which is exactly as it should be met with. I remember when fuel injection was considered too expensive and also a ridiculous replacement for carbs. I also remember the outrage of unleaded fuel, which is still going on. Front wheel drive received the same reaction, radial tires will blow up and kill you. Seat belts trap you and kill you in car rather than ejecting you to safety ( and I still here that sometimes, although those are the people that still believe we didn't land on the moon and a whole list of other conspiracies.
Radiators were condemned as to complicated to work on motorcycles. Harley owners went out the window over a radiator in their bike (blasphemy). They also came out with a transmission that didn't slam into 1st gear, both would have made the bikes more comfortable and up to date. The head cooling are is being snuck in because of it being necessary for cooling heads.
Anybody remember the change on some to shaft drive, that one was short lived because it worked, aluminum heads and plated cylinders peeling which was also short lived. The move away from 2 strokes or electric starters when what you purchased had a kick starter and a electric starter.
These discussions and push back make the manufacturers produce better and better alternatives to what is on the market now and research on new ideas, some don't work. For instance turbines in motorcycles ( which were are and still are god awful fast- see Jay Leno) or the rotary engine Mazda used. Neither was emission efficient and got horrible gas mileage. But they were tried and pretty much failed for masses.
Like it or not electric is here to stay now, it will be interesting to see where it goes.
The curse of "Living in interesting times" still holds true
What is impressive is that the discussions actually base on intelligent comparisons to reality instead of cynical complaints, this shows me that we seem to getting well read and have sense enough to look at it with a brain being used. I read somewhere it is ok to go down the rabbit hole as long as you don't take your brain with it when you go.
TALK ON DUDES.
 

the Ferret

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Suzuki just announced they are showing a Hydrogen powered bike at Eicma this year.
 
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Einstein said, well, you know what he said and it took me a while to get my head around it; don't worry, I'm not going to parrot it, and frankly, I think he was not without a bit of bs. However, it takes that leap to explore and possibly drive alternatives and possibilities. My own opinion is that gasoline is the last bastion of carrying massive amounts of stored and convertible energy, hydrogen isn't going to happen insofar as carrying the stuff around. It's all electric now, like it or not.
 
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I think on our hydro bill 7 pm to 7 am is 7.1 cents per kWh and during peak time it is 16 cents and there is a shoulder period where the rate is somewhere in between. He converted all values to US currency which is fair to get a realistic comparison. To account for extra charges on the bill I usually calculate 10 cents off peak and 20 cents per kWh peak cost
Electric cars are much more efficient than gas, mine uses about 14 kWh per 100 km under ideal conditions and about 20 kWh per 100 km in cold miserable conditions, so at the worst consumption using the highest home electric rate it would cost $4.00 for 100 km. In comparison Cherie’s VW uses about 8 litres to travel 100 km which costs $12.00 today.
Originally, Tesla claimed 21-23 kWh/100km for my Model X, but that's under ideal conditions I've never encountred. They're favoured by EPA and allowed to submit their own MPGe stats using their proprietary test-routine. My average range is 190 miles compared to their claimed 360 miles. Which comes out to 31 kWh/100km. It also uses 10-15% of its battery power to keep itself cool when parked in garage. And if I go up any kind of hills, it consumes much more power. Kinda like using AC on '70s GM auto where you can see petrol gauge move quickly!

On average for this past year, it's takes roughly 39 kWh/100km of charging power (accounting for 90% battery round-trip+12.5% cooling) @0.21/kWh or about U$D 8.19/11.22 CAD.
Equivalent cost in my sister's Prius on same 100km trip would be 1.24 gal petrol or U$D 4.87/6.68 CAD.

I'm using tiered pricing plan where 1st 2000 kWh costs less, then additional costs more. With house AC needed close to 24/7, I end up paying higher-rates to charge the car. I originally had time-of-day plan, but amount of time required to charge battery always ends up using all of off-peak hours and spills into peak-rates.

"The EPA’s numbers still vary greatly from other independent testing sources. Not by 3% but by 30%. "

How are your hydro rates so much lower? Other than PG&E being one of most corrupt companies ever. Wanna trade your EV for Tesla Model X???
 

Gerhard

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Originally, Tesla claimed 21-23 kWh/100km for my Model X, but that's under ideal conditions I've never encountred.
Model X is a lot bigger vehicle than a Nissan Leaf, 14 kWh is what it consumes at temps between 15°C and and 25°C on a calm day, on a windy cold day it will use about 50% more.
 

STFlips

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Some great discussion in this thread that I am enjoying and I’m learning stuff too. My only comment is that I don’t think any of us ride to save money, but for fun, so get the right tool for the job and enjoy, IMO
 
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Actually I did ride from 2000 to 2013 to save money on my commute to work, saved me a bunch of deniros.
I would have done it anyway though, it was a piece of time to get ready for work and a time to wind down after. Missed it like crazy when the weather did not let me ride.
 
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I certainly used my Ninja 250 to save on petrol costs for commuting to S.F. Gets 65mpg and I can go for entire week on one tank! With petrol prices at time, that was costing me U$D 2.75/100km or about 1/3rd Tesla's cost for same distance.

Also nice ride going in and seeing sunrise. I bypass 16-lane toll-booth section in 60-seconds that normally takes 45-minutes by car! :)

 
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