Yea, I thought of that later, but I do have both and thought it might be worth mentioning because many of us older guys still use tools we have had for decades. Jeff's readings are so close to normal, I thought meter error might be a consideration.
I have a charging system problem please advise
- Thread starter 1991ST1100
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I compared my meter to two other meters today and its all good. I think the problem is in the headlights circuit now. I made a video and uploaded it to youtube if your able please watch and notice.... here is the info posted with the video...Voltage readings on a 1991 ST1100. New battery and aftermarket VRR. The 3p yellow wired red connector removed, wires soldered together. In the first part of the video the headlight and clock fuse are removed. Maybe halfway thru the vid I plug the headlight fuse back in and notice the voltage goes up around 15.5 and more, this is when the VRR starts to get really hot
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjCImoVIt-Q&feature=youtu.be
kiltman
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There's a headlight ground fix that might get good results
I've never had to troubleshoot this on an ST, but here's a guess that perhaps someone else can confirm/deny. In the attached wiring diagram note the red highlighted wire. It goes from the main fuse area to the regulator. My guess it that's the load sensing wire for the regulator. As you put more load on the system (as in headlight fuse in/out) the voltage drop across the main fuse increases. The regulator senses that drop and tries to hold that voltage at a pre-defined level. That wire is part of a 4-pin connector in the main fuse area, try to find it by tracing the R/W (red/white) wire that comes out of the regulator over to the main fuse. Make sure the connector with the R/W wire is clean, as well as the main fuse and its holder. Also see if you're able to probe that location and if so, see how much voltage drop you're seeing across the main fuse (measure from battery + terminal to the other side of the fuse).
edit: a while after I posted this it occurred to me that this is the "red wire fix" that I've heard about on the 28A bikes, right?
edit: a while after I posted this it occurred to me that this is the "red wire fix" that I've heard about on the 28A bikes, right?
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I will check that out tomorrow, Thanks!
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Ok, Will do tomorrow and check the headlight fix solution in the forums, Thanks! Oh If anyone wants to chat in skype, just audio, My skype is Jeff McDonald My skype photo is a black ST1100, Thanks again!I've never had to troubleshoot this on an ST, but here's a guess that perhaps someone else can confirm/deny. In the attached wiring diagram note the red highlighted wire. It goes from the main fuse area to the regulator. My guess it that's the load sensing wire for the regulator. As you put more load on the system (as in headlight fuse in/out) the voltage drop across the main fuse increases. The regulator senses that drop and tries to hold that voltage at a pre-defined level. That wire is part of a 4-pin connector in the main fuse area, try to find it by tracing the R/W (red/white) wire that comes out of the regulator over to the main fuse. Make sure the connector with the R/W wire is clean, as well as the main fuse and its holder. Also see if you're able to probe that location and if so, see how much voltage drop you're seeing across the main fuse (measure from battery + terminal to the other side of the fuse).
I think one thing is apparent. You have a well functioning alternator, able to put out some serious voltage. It is up to the VRR to control that voltage within a certain spec, which it seems incapable of doing. After doing all the alternator tests and eliminating the problem areas, if it were me, I'd be getting a new VRR.
John OoSTerhuis
Life Is Good!
Colored wiring diagrams: http://www.st-riders.net/index.php?topic=3908
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OK, thanks John!
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Will do that now, Thanks John!
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I did not have time to try the old VRR today as I said I would, mainly due to Kiltman telling me of an aftermarket for $25 so I am going to try that first and continue to work on the solutions you guys have given me. I think the next think I will do while waiting on the new VRR will be the headlight ground fix. Thanks again to everyone reading this that has offered tips, more updates soon!
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Originally Posted by Bush View Post
Is your meter accurate because you are so close to being within proper range? Some meters have an adjustment screw to zero the needle.
Needle !!! What year is this, who uses analog voltmeters anymore?
Actually, I use both anolog and digital. For seeing any slight voltage variation, anolog meter IS your best choice!
Is your meter accurate because you are so close to being within proper range? Some meters have an adjustment screw to zero the needle.
Needle !!! What year is this, who uses analog voltmeters anymore?
Actually, I use both anolog and digital. For seeing any slight voltage variation, anolog meter IS your best choice!
The claim was always that analog could display a quickly changing signal better. If the rate of change was significantly faster than the sampling rate of the digital meter then you'd miss the variations in between samples and the signal would look more stable than it really was. Fluke meters have an analog bar graph below the digits, which samples much faster than the digital display, to mitigate that issue somewhat. For automotive charging systems the sampling rate is probably moot, his digital meter was certainly fast enough to show that his charging voltage was all over the place. For very small variations, the digital meter has the advantage of having higher resolution than the analog meter on a given range setting.
Been over a week since we last heard from you Jeff. Has your problem been resolved?
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We have had rain last many days but I will be back soon with reports on the new VRR and the headlight ground fix
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I received the new VRR today and here is what I did. Here is what I did.
I checked the voltage on the battery it was 12.75v. The bike had not been started for about 2 weeks until today. So I installed the new VRR and started the bike and was excited to see 12.4 volts but hopes began to ebb away because the first thing I noticed was when I revved the engine the voltage did not go up and was actually very slowly going down on voltage. I had removed the headlight fuse, so I put the fuse back in and now the voltage is dropping even more. By the end of all I did, the voltage dropped from 12.75v to 12.07v. So it seems that the system is not charging at all. To check this I put the last VRR back on its the aftermarket one with heat fines and it slowly climbs back up to 15.7 volts. Next thing I do is put the orginal OEM VRR back on and now the voltage is back down to battery voltage around 12.4. Then I put the new one back on that I got today and it still shows battery only voltage 12.4 v and dropping. I let the bike warm up fully until the radiator fan came on and this is where I watched the voltage drop to 12.07v. I am baffled. It seems that I have a new VRR that is bad and not allowing the Alt to charge the battery because the last VRR is showing 15.7v HELP! LOL. Feel free to call anytime on my cell 806-777-2485. I am on also Skype under my real name Jeff McDonald in Lubbock Tx, with audio, no video. I don't know why there is a blue S before my phone number. Just call my cell on that number or use skype. Thanks
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That makes two of us!
I can only suspect that you have somehow missed an open winding in the stator (alternator) during the tests of that unit, which I thought had been properly checked out by yourself, under the phone guidance of John O. As to WHY that aftermarket unit gets you higher voltage, I have no idea. Possibly it is designed to drive the one or two remaining good coils in the stator to produce at maximum output to compensate for the bad winding(s)?? Pure speculation, but I also suspect that you have two good OEM VRR's now and the real problem lies within the stator.
Sorry this wasn't the fix for you, but you have already thrown too many dollars at this problem and you will likely be further ahead to "cut bait" at this point and get the 40 amp upgrade done, since the 28 amp stator is no longer available new from Honda.
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Another question - Did you perform the dynamic test of the alternator output from each of the three stator coils? This is done with the engine running and seeing what voltages are coming out of each of the three yellow leads from the alternator.
Those voltages should all be within a volt or two of each other. If one was low, that means a bad winding, possibly the varnish between the wires on that winding melted causing not a short to ground, but an isolated short in the winding creating a lesser voltage output because you have fewer INDIVIDUAL windings in that coil, with possibly many unvarnished windings having made connection. This would not show up as a shorted to ground problem at all and could only be detected by the dynamic test. Possibly the resistance check of each winding would pick this up also.
This is what apparently happened to my stator in my previous '95 model. I had no continuity to ground on any stator winding, but two were putting out 25V and one was down to 18V. In that state, I was still able to get sufficient voltage to the battery for charging (just over 13V somewhere), but only with the headlight fuse pulled.
Those voltages should all be within a volt or two of each other. If one was low, that means a bad winding, possibly the varnish between the wires on that winding melted causing not a short to ground, but an isolated short in the winding creating a lesser voltage output because you have fewer INDIVIDUAL windings in that coil, with possibly many unvarnished windings having made connection. This would not show up as a shorted to ground problem at all and could only be detected by the dynamic test. Possibly the resistance check of each winding would pick this up also.
This is what apparently happened to my stator in my previous '95 model. I had no continuity to ground on any stator winding, but two were putting out 25V and one was down to 18V. In that state, I was still able to get sufficient voltage to the battery for charging (just over 13V somewhere), but only with the headlight fuse pulled.
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Just a reminder of how this problem began a few months ago. During my warm up time while getting ready to ride I smelled something electrical burning. I usually set the choke at 2000 rpm for warm-up. So I shut off the bike and noticed some smoke coming from the left side and then removed the seat and left cover to see VRR. at this point I did'nt even know it was a VRR. I started the bike back up at 2000 rpm again and was looking for the source of the smoke. After about a minute the bottom part of the VRR right corner was spewing smoke BAD like someone blowing smoke from a cigarette but even more dense. and dripping black junk. So I shut the bike off and my mechanic told me it was the VRR and was probably bad now so we ordered one, which was the aftermarket VRR for $100. The one I received today was $25,on ebay and Kiltman told me he knew they were good VRR's. Finally my point is that my old OEM VRR is now only showing 12.7v-12.07v when before it also was showing the 15.7 and up voltages. That is why it spewed smoke but today it did not. This makes no sense to me. After I respond to your next post I will go back and install the OEM black smoker VRR and see if it will even heat up.
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John and I did not do the dynamic test but I will check into how I can do that. I guess cut into the shrink wrap or poke a needle in... back later with more