I have a charging system problem please advise

[Bush]

I do not understand an oil cooled alternator but I would think that oil saturated wires could be a problem?

There are oil and air cooled alternators. The 28 amp alternator is oil cooled and is sealed to the engine with two large o-rings. Sometimes those can also leak oil. The wires do not come into contact with the oil at all, as the stator windings are covered with a sealing lacquer and where those coil wires leave the stator for the alternator, they are also insulated. So, as I said earlier, no worries there, except the slow oil leak can be bothersome.

If your VRR is smoking, that is definitely not supposed to happen. If you have done the alternator tests, as laid out in the service manual, and I suspect John would have guided you through it already, then your focus should really turn to that VRR. There is no "pigtail" that I'm aware of that needs testing. If your VRR is an aftermarket item, ie. not a Honda part, then that is likely the problem, especially given the information about it smoking.

 

[1991ST1100]

There are oil and air cooled alternators. The 28 amp alternator is oil cooled and is sealed to the engine with two large o-rings. Sometimes those can also leak oil. The wires do not come into contact with the oil at all, as the stator windings are covered with a sealing lacquer and where those coil wires leave the stator for the alternator, they are also insulated. So, as I said earlier, no worries there, except the slow oil leak can be bothersome.

If your VRR is smoking, that is definitely not supposed to happen. If you have done the alternator tests, as laid out in the service manual, and I suspect John would have guided you through it already, then your focus should really turn to that VRR. There is no "pigtail" that I'm aware of that needs testing. If your VRR is an aftermarket item, ie. not a Honda part, then that is likely the problem, especially given the information about it smoking.

I replaced the VRR and the new one is not smoking because it has heat fins. The fins will get hot and that usually happens in around 5 mins. It is a hard pill to swallow to go spend more than $200 on an OEM VRR. I paid $100 for the new VRR and I do not know how I can return it since most electronic items have a no return policy. John said its virtually impossible to test a VRR with a meter but I sure would like to prove its bad before throwing $200 at it. I just really do not like replacing things hit and miss way of fixing things due to limited budget. This bike is becoming a nightmare, I really believed that I could come here to this site and get clear solutions to this problem. I guess I have came up with a unique problem. Sorry if a little bit of bad attitude slipped out, I am just frustrated and want to be out riding, but sincere thanks to you and all who are trying to help.

 

[Bush]

The only test that I am aware of which you can do on the VRR is testing the diodes, but given the fact that your system is putting out too many volts, that would lead me to believe that all 6 diodes are working properly. A bad diode will drop the output from the VRR.

Does anyone reading this have a used, known good OEM VRR that they could send to Jeff for postage costs? Perhaps someone who did the 40 amp upgrade BEFORE their 28 amp system died?

I just re-read this entire thread to see what was missed, if anything. It appears that you have not yet inspected the red 3P connector or the black 2P connector, on the wires coming off the alternator. The red one is probably the "pigtail" someone else was talking about. Disconnect those two plastic wire connectors - you can't miss them - they are right there in the open near the VRR and check for corrosion inside. Also, the VRR connector itself has not been mentioned and corrosion there will also cause problems. Any greenish discolouration of the spade connectors inside those fittings must be removed to get a good connection.

The corrosion can also hide in the other end of that red 3P connector, where the wires exit each side of the connector. Should corrosion have eaten into the wires themselves, you may not see it easily. My '95 had that problem, which evaded my detection initially when just checking inside the connectors.

The best thing to do is to cut that red connector out of the wiring harness and solder and shrink wrap the three yellow wires together, individually of course, which will remove that as one source of potential problem.

The black two wire connector has not been linked to alternator problems that I have seen here before, but take it apart and see that it is clean also.

 

[1991ST1100]

The only test that I am aware of which you can do on the VRR is testing the diodes, but given the fact that your system is putting out too many volts, that would lead me to believe that all 6 diodes are working properly. A bad diode will drop the output from the VRR.

Does anyone reading this have a used, known good OEM VRR that they could send to Jeff for postage costs? Perhaps someone who did the 40 amp upgrade BEFORE their 28 amp system died?

I just re-read this entire thread to see what was missed, if anything. It appears that you have not yet inspected the red 3P connector or the black 2P connector, on the wires coming off the alternator. The red one is probably the "pigtail" someone else was talking about. Disconnect those two plastic wire connectors - you can't miss them - they are right there in the open near the VRR and check for corrosion inside. Also, the VRR connector itself has not been mentioned and corrosion there will also cause problems. Any greenish discolouration of the spade connectors inside those fittings must be removed to get a good connection.

The corrosion can also hide in the other end of that red 3P connector, where the wires exit each side of the connector. Should corrosion have eaten into the wires themselves, you may not see it easily. My '95 had that problem, which evaded my detection initially when just checking inside the connectors.

The best thing to do is to cut that red connector out of the wiring harness and solder and shrink wrap the three yellow wires together, individually of course, which will remove that as one source of potential problem.

The black two wire connector has not been linked to alternator problems that I have seen here before, but take it apart and see that it is clean also.

Thanks Bush and yes I did check the 3p yellow when John helped me do the alternator test unless there is another 3p yellow. It was a red plastic 3p connector and I also checked the black 2p and all other connections on that side of the bike. I will recheck all of them and I will cut and solder the yellow 3p alternator wires. Thanks!

 

[Bush]

Give that 6P connector to the VRR a good look too. The large red wire in there carries the voltage/current to the battery and is usually the one that will show heat or corrosion damage. If you still have a high voltage problem after this, you really need to beg, borrow, steal, or buy a new VRR. Yours being an aftermarket component, which you can't test, leaves it as the most likely source of the problem.

Make sure your battery terminals are good and snug too.

 

[1991ST1100]

Give that 6P connector to the VRR a good look too. The large red wire in there carries the voltage/current to the battery and is usually the one that will show heat or corrosion damage. If you still have a high voltage problem after this, you really need to beg, borrow, steal, or buy a new VRR. Yours being an aftermarket component, which you can't test, leaves it as the most likely source of the problem.

Make sure your battery terminals are good and snug too.

Ok thanks again. I am looking for the soldering iron now and the battery is back on trickle charger. I do not know what to say about the wire on the alternator, its greasy and there is only one wire. Looks like it will be tomorrow before I can get the soldering done it is getting dark and it might be awhile before I can find the soldering iron. Thanks again!

 

[ST Gui]

Heat shrink tubing will work a little better than shrink wrap.

 

[1991ST1100]

Heat shrink tubing will work a little better than shrink wrap.

Never used shrink wrap or heat shrink tubing but will get it to put over the soldered connection, Thanks

 

[Bush]

Heat shrink tubing will work a little better than shrink wrap.

Shrink tubing, shrink wrap - I am thinking of the same thing.

 

[Bush]

Never used shrink wrap or heat shrink tubing but will get it to put over the soldered connection, Thanks

Put it over one end of the cut wire before you solder, away from the heat of the iron, do the solder joint, allow to cool, slide the shrink wrap/tubing over the joint and heat the tubing very lightly with a Bic lighter or match. Doesn't take too much heat to cause the shrinkage - unlike when we jump into a cold pool, but I digress - just add enough heat to fully shrink the wrap. After all three are done, you could wrap all three wires in black electrical tape, fully covering the shrunk stuff and some of the wiring on either side.

 

[Bush]

I do not know what to say about the wire on the alternator, its greasy and there is only one wire.

What comes out of the alternator is one, quite thick black sheath which houses all the yellow and the two black/white wires. Don't worry about that. It is greasy because of that oil leak you mentioned earlier, but isn't your biggest problem right now.

 

[Bush]

Jeff, Just another little tip, if you need the advice on doing a good wire splice and solder. Use a Western Union splice, as shown in this video. Heat the exposed wire splice at one end and apply the solder at the other end to draw the solder through the joint. I find it conducts the heat through wire joint faster if you have a drop of molten solder on the iron first, before touching the cold solder to the other end of the joint.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsZvHrMIoNs

 

[1991ST1100]

Jeff, Just another little tip, if you need the advice on doing a good wire splice and solder. Use a Western Union splice, as shown in this video. Heat the exposed wire splice at one end and apply the solder at the other end to draw the solder through the joint.

Thanks for the video on soldering, I had forgotten how to solder properly. BUT Great news, I decided to change the oil first and still have not located the soldering iron but this gave me time to not just jump right into soldering and think....
What I did was start the bike up after the oil change and check things again and it was reading 15.8 volts. So I decided to unplug the 3p yellow alt wires while the bike was running and then the meter reading showed only 12.7 volts so I shut the bike off and plugged the 3p yellow alt plug back together started it up and it wasn't charging at all. So I thought there must be a bad connection like you and everyone said! so I shut the bike off and unplugged and plugged the 3p connector a dozen times or so and started the bike up and like magic the meter reading was 13.7v I feel sure that soldering the wires will fix this problem much better so later this afternoon or evening I will get the soldering done. Meanwhile the battery is back on the trickle charger so the alternator will not need to work hard and hopefully that will keep the VRR from getting hot because thats my last concern, it did get hot even when showing 13.7 volts. Someone, I forget who, said its normal for the VRR to get hot especially the heat fins.
Looks like we got it fixed! However, I didn't mention what happened a week ago, was at my mothers house and parked the bike in the shade of a tree and good ole mom backed into it and broke some stuff so now I am on the hunt for used parts. I need the right mirror case and blinker housing I think the mirror itself is ok, I might need a front brake reservoir, because the fall made some leak out but it hasn't leaked since then so not sure on that, and then I need a right side saddle bag. I will probably get this stuff off ebay unless someone has these items for sale in the color black.
I will report back in after soldering is done and hopefully let everyone interested to know that the problem is solved!

 

[Bush]

I forget who, said its normal for the VRR to get hot especially the heat fins.

That would be me that told you that. It does get very hot under normal conditions, but it should never smoke, as your old one did. It does heat up rather fast too. If I remember correctly, I once measured the temperature with a friend's temp sensor and it was around 95 Celsius, almost hot enough to boil water! This was on the front side of the non finned OEM VRR.

Let's hope it is that 3P connector causing the problem. BTW, that video only shows you how to securely and cleanly splice the wire. I gave you the tip on proper method of soldering in that post and added a bit more to it just now.

 

[1991ST1100]

That would be me that told you that. It does get very hot under normal conditions, but it should never smoke, as your old one did. It does heat up rather fast too. If I remember correctly, I once measured the temperature with a friend's temp sensor and it was around 95 Celsius, almost hot enough to boil water! This was on the front side of the non finned OEM VRR.

Let's hope it is that 3P connector causing the problem. BTW, that video only shows you how to securely and cleanly splice the wire. I gave you the tip on proper method of soldering in that post and added a bit more to it just now.

The operation was not a success unfortunately. There must be some bad connections somewhere else. After I soldered the 3p yellows started it up and it read 13.4v and after a little while maybe 30 secs, it slowly went back to over 15v as high at 15.5v, and happened faster if i revved it. I started and restarted the bike 5 times and same thing every time. I will check all the connections and wires again tomorrow. I am beginning to think it is a lousy aftermarket VRR. I wish i could find a wire pipe cleaner to scrub the metal connectors with.

 

[Bush]

Any tobacconist shops in your area? They should have pipe cleaners of the soft and wired kind.

 

[Bush]

The voltage will read lower at idle and increase as you rev the engine. That's normal. The Honda service manual specs an output range from 12.6 to 15.0V, so if you are over the 15V mark, that's a bit too much and could shorten the life of the battery. Is your meter accurate because you are so close to being within proper range? Some meters have an adjustment screw to zero the needle. Do you know any techs at an auto shop, or bike shop that might stick their voltmeter on to compare readings?

Having said that, it is unlikely that you would get a 15V reading with a new, fully charged battery. Are the headlights off when testing? Pull the headlight fuse and see what you get.

 

[1991ST1100]

The voltage will read lower at idle and increase as you rev the engine. That's normal. The Honda service manual specs an output range from 12.6 to 15.0V, so if you are over the 15V mark, that's a bit too much and could shorten the life of the battery. Is your meter accurate because you are so close to being within proper range? Some meters have an adjustment screw to zero the needle. Do you know any techs at an auto shop, or bike shop that might stick their voltmeter on to compare readings?

Having said that, it is unlikely that you would get a 15V reading with a new, fully charged battery. Are the headlights off when testing? Pull the headlight fuse and see what you get.

That is an excellent idea my meter is cheap. I actually did pull the headlight fuse earlier. I think it read lower, maybe 12.9v, than normal but same think went over 15.5 v Will check the pipe shops tomorrow too. Thanks!

 

[dwalby]

Is your meter accurate because you are so close to being within proper range? Some meters have an adjustment screw to zero the needle.

Needle !!! What year is this, who uses analog voltmeters anymore?

That is an excellent idea my meter is cheap.

If its a digital meter its likely accurate enough for the job. I've compared the giveaway meters from Harbor Freight to my two Fluke meters and on DC Volts they always agree.

 

[DeanR]

I've compared the giveaway meters from Harbor Freight to my two Fluke meters and on DC Volts they always agree.

Good to know. I have a few of em.