Parking lot practice

[OkieRider]

I agree with your statement, but the original poster is riding a Gold Wing. When he applies the brake pedal, he gets not only some rear brake but also some front brake. That front brake while leaned over will throw the bike out of balance to some extent. His idea about switching bikes might solve that problem.

I only use hand controls in slow tight situations. It's not a problem. There's not enough force at low speed to make the fine points of high speed riding relevant.

 

[DaveWooster]

On my guided Alps tours switchbacks and tight turns are a constant part of the riding. Depending on the number of passes and length of riding day I can easily do 200+ switchbacks/U type turns a day. I never really had a technique - just sort of learned to deal with it until I could go around most of them no problem.

Then I had a bad accident here in NH back in Oct 2014 - had surgery to reattach my broken left arm and reconstruct my left shoulder. I was left with some motion impairment and couldn't ride for 7 months. My first serious ride was back in the Alps on my June 2015 tour. I immediately realized I was in deep trouble on the switchbacks because the left arm had no strength, plus a slight jolt of pain when trying to push out to counter steer or turn to the right. Fortunately I had owned an older Ducati in a previous life, which had no turning radius and had learned to do tight turns with the Duc by simply letting it fall into turns and then picking it up with the throttle when I was far enough around. Not the most efficient or easiest way to turn - required a fair bit of constant concentration, but it got me through the June tours.

When I came home I got serious about my turning technique. I watched a bunch of videos - Ride Like a Pro was fairly informative - and I would go for a 45 - 75 minute ride every rain free morning with approx 3 - 5 parking lots along the way. I would pull into the parking lots, practice u-turns, figure 8s, friction control, etc. I did that every day for 2 months until my September Alps tours.

The upshot was/is that I can turn better now after all that deliberate practice than I ever could before my accident, even with 20 years of Alps switchback riding. Left hand turns used to be my worst, but now they are my best because I am right handed and the right arm has the strength to immediately push with no hesitation. Right hand turns are not quite as tight (although still better than before the accident) because there is usually just a fraction of hesitation, weakness, discomfort when pushing with the left arm so it takes just a tad longer to initiate the turn. I've done a number of u-turns since my practice on local roads, even 2-up, that I would have had to stop and back up on pre-accident. Who knew?

Excellent post!! (even though it is about more than low speed turning).

When weakness and/or pain are present in your left arm, there is no room for fantasies which say all it takes to turn right is to countersteer (when first entering a right hander) by pushing the right hand grip away from you. You can feel it in your left arm that you will need to steer back to the right in order to eventually turn the bike to the right. In fact, if all you do is countersteer, your bike will simply crash down hard on its right side. But I would suggest, instead of pushing with the weak left, you can pull back the right grip for much the same result.

(I'm talking here about riding at a moderate speed, which is not the main topic here.)

I also agree that you can safely learn about all there is to know about motorbike steering and countersteering by pushing and riding an ordinary bicycle. For example, push the bike around, and notice if it turns to the right when you steer it to the left.
NOT!

 

[DaveWooster]

Not to diminish everything you've been through, and recovered from, but you have the pushing backwards. The bike turns into the direction of the pushing hand, not away from it. You push with the left hand to turn to the left, and vice versa.

Moto-Charlie seems to me to have it right.

The bike leans toward the side of the grip you are pushing; it turns toward the other side. Counter steering is called that because it steers the bike in the direction which is counter from the direction you want the bike to turn. If that makes it sound as if there is more to turning a bike than to counter steer it, then so be it. (To be clear, I am talking here about the use of counter steering briefly when leaving a straight and entering a curve.)
See also the next post.

 

[DaveWooster]

Push right go right. Push left go left.

That holds some truth but is an oversimplification.

For example ...

At moderate speed, when leaving a straight and approaching a right hander, I push the right grip in order to lean the bike to the right because that is the direction I eventually want the bike to turn towards. Once it is leaning, I steer the bike back to the right. One way to do that is to pull the right hand grip back towards me.
Want details?

Now I backtrack, and I go through the same straight and right hander at a very slow speed. The amount of leaning required is so tiny that any counter steering I do may go unnoticed, even by me. I will notice more that, once the bike is leaning slightly, I am steering the bike to the right, in order to turn it to the right.

I back track again. I approach and take that same turn at my best racing speed. Counter steering to initiate the leaning is so important now that I might devote my full attention to it. So I push on the right hand grip. I may not even notice that I later pull that same grip, but I will have to pull it some, for two reasons:
I must turn the bike to the right, and
I must not let the bike fall down to the right.
(I cannot afford to even let the bike lean a bit too far to the right. Nor can I afford to not lean it far enough.)

 

[jspringator]

Everything I know about Harlan I learned from Justified.

This was how I felt going down these buffalo trails in a Goldwing.

 

[dduelin]

I agree (entirely) with your statement, but the original poster is riding a Gold Wing. When he applies the brake pedal, he gets not only some rear brake but also some front brake. That front brake while leaned over will throw his bike out of balance to some extent, I think.
His idea about switching bikes might solve that problem.

If I may be a bit presumptuous, because the OP is riding a Goldwing he is out practicing on that bike in order to master slow speed maneuvers with it. Switching to his other bike defeats the purpose. I, like the OP, will not submit my will to that of a machine and let it control the places than I can go on it. Within reason of course, when the terrain is unpaved and soft I know the limits of my street bikes. Most anyone can control a motorcycle at speed but a rider that can control his mount in slow precision maneuvers knows his craft.

I also ride a GL1800 similar to the OP's bike and use of the rear brake does apply some front brake but Honda did a really good job making the system safe and easy to use at slow speeds. The foot pedal pressure required to control speed in these parking lot slow speed maneuvers passes very little pressure to the front brakes and doesn't create problems. In practice if you didn't know the brakes were linked you would never know it. Much like the ST1300 LBS.

 

[Moto-Charlie]

Not to diminish everything you've been through, and recovered from, but you have the pushing backwards. The bike turns into the direction of the pushing hand, not away from it. You push with the left hand to turn to the left, and vice versa.

Larry - Thanks for the feedback. I don't pretend to know the science of turning. I was simply saying, as dduelin noted in post #32 after your comment, that in really slow turns, regardless of how I initiate the turn, I ultimately have to push the bar out to complete the turn.

There are lots of videos on slow speed u-turns. Many of them talk about the need to make a little steering dip to the opposite side prior to turning such that if I'm turning right I first give a quick steering dip to the left to get the turn started (I find that works well for me on higher speed truns as well). That may well be a form of counter steering. In my case, below a certain speed, I need to push the left bar out quite a ways to complete the tight right hand turn.

I was hoping my takeaway, regardless of the arm injury, was that a deliberate effort to learn and practice sometimes trumps years of just winging it. I've been riding the Alps for more than 35+ years with thousands of switcbacks. Even so - 2 months of deliberate practice, left arm and all, improved my turning technique considerably. I enjoyed reading all the various input in this thread.

 

[jspringator]

I trid the finger on the grip housing advice. It really helped. This is how I held my throttle hand.

Untitled by jspringator, on Flickr

This shows the position of my throttle rocker. It helped me maintain throttle opening with the revised grip.

Untitled by jspringator, on Flickr

skidgillen, is this what you were talking about? Does the finger need to go over more?

 

[ST Gui]

In my case, below a certain speed, I need to push the left bar out quite a ways to complete the tight right hand turn.

Yes. Below a given speed as in low speed maneuvering - counter steering as most of us know it isn't normally a factor. You're turning the bars in the direction you want to steer the bike. Some people used an opposite turn dip as you mentioned to start a turn. I'm of the mind that needing to do that is compensating and a function of not setting up your turn properly in the first place. I see people do that in cars a lot. Again I think it's compensating for being a little lazy.

Over a certain speed counter-steering comes into play. What is that speed? I have no idea. Maybe the wheelbase/center of gravity/weight of rider/prevailing winds/choice of breakfast cereal/type of oil all act to establish the border between slow speed maneuvering and counter-steering for your ride. Don't know don't care.

It's counter intuitive to turn bars opposite the direction of which you want to steer the bike. To that end I think "counter-steering" is a misnomer and clouds the issue of turning.

One way to find the exact or very close speed at which you and your ride transition from turning 'slowly' (pull right - go right) to "counter-steering" (push right - go right) is to find a nice wide smooth space somewhere. Mark out a large circle - 20-25' - on the ground. Ride the track you've laid out at a fast enough speed to require you to lean the into the circle a little (counter steering). No need to drag your knee or elbow. Just get your lean on.

While maintaining your front wheel on the track and checking the speedometer slowly back off on the throttle. Note your speed when the bike falls over. Do this a few times and maybe try the opposite direction. Decrease the radius. Repeat. Find the average speed. For your kit that's probably the speed at which you should have been turning the bars towards the direction you want to steer your bike instead of turning them in the opposite direction to steer keep track. You're welcome.

 

[Pop-Pop]

I've been going to the Kroger parking lot for turning practice every evening trying to improve my low speed turning. After the last ride, I moved the adjustable clutch lever as close as I could, and rotated the lever UP so that it is easier to modulate with my newly arthritic hands. It helped a great deal. Left turns were much better; right turns, not so much.

Why are right turns so much harder for me?

I dont know but i struggle with the right turns too. I think its in my head because we are used to riding on the right and u turn to the left more.

 

[jmc]

You probably gaved him an Heart attack.

One exercise we had to do, to learn to use the friction zone of the clutch, was to let it slip, just so that we could stop and go, every 8 feet or so : stop and go, just using the rear brake, without modify the gaz or the clutch, keeping them as they were.
Just a bit of gaz, and with the correct amount of clutch, you could stop the bike (without killing the engine) and roll again, just playing with the brake.

I've never quite understood this because the STs have *linked brakes.* When you brake with just the rear brake, you aren't; you're using both brakes. Please help me to understand this . . .

 

[jmc]

And yes, left turns are easier for me than right. Dunno why.

 

[Larry Fine]

I've never quite understood this because the STs have *linked brakes.* When you brake with just the rear brake, you aren't; you're using both brakes. Please help me to understand this . . .

The brake lever applies more braking force to the front brake, and the brake pedal applies more braking force to the rear brake.

They don't exactly permit completely independent operation, but the system still allows you to apply your braking preferences.

The rear response to the front brake is proportional, and the front response to the rear brake is both proportionate and delayed.

 

[spiderman302]

You guys are working too hard. A long long time ago when I learned to ride a bicycle, I quickly learned how to ride it without touching the handle bars. I rode that bike like that for decades. I never really thought about how I steer my bike. So tonight I kind of paid more attention to what I was doing. I realized that I do not put any effort into turning my ST1300 with my hands. I do not counter steer. It is all in my hips and shifting my weight and the bike falls into the turn. I remember my brother talking about counter steering years ago, it made no sense to me. Now I know why. It is all about balance and steering with your butt and your legs.....

 

[drtyrrel]

Yes. Below a given speed as in low speed maneuvering - counter steering as most of us know it isn't normally a factor. You're turning the bars in the direction you want to steer the bike. Some people used an opposite turn dip as you mentioned to start a turn. I'm of the mind that needing to do that is compensating and a function of not setting up your turn properly in the first place. I see people do that in cars a lot. Again I think it's compensating for being a little lazy.

The reason for the dip in the opposite direction before a sharp turn is to add a little momentum to get you on the side of your tires where you can turn in a sharper radius. If you have a light motorcycle or even a bicycle keep the bike fully upright while standing beside it. Try turning it sharply while pushing it. Now lean the bike and try the same thing.

Over a certain speed counter-steering comes into play. What is that speed? I have no idea. Maybe the wheelbase/center of gravity/weight of rider/prevailing winds/choice of breakfast cereal/type of oil all act to establish the border between slow speed maneuvering and counter-steering for your ride. Don't know don't care.

That speed is about is about 13 mph. When coaching new riders how to press to initiate lean (counter steering) the hardest part is to get them to go fast enough to where they can feel the bike lean when they press the bars. Next get them to look where the want to go

 

[ddemair]

You guys are working too hard. A long long time ago when I learned to ride a bicycle, I quickly learned how to ride it without touching the handle bars. I rode that bike like that for decades. I never really thought about how I steer my bike. So tonight I kind of paid more attention to what I was doing. I realized that I do not put any effort into turning my ST1300 with my hands. I do not counter steer. It is all in my hips and shifting my weight and the bike falls into the turn. I remember my brother talking about counter steering years ago, it made no sense to me. Now I know why. It is all about balance and steering with your butt and your legs.....

A bicycle, given its much lighter weight, is far easier to turn by shifting your weight. Try turning a motorcycle without your hands on the handlebar and I think you'll see that you've been counter-steering whether you realize it or not. It's nearly impossible to effectively turn a motorcycle by only shifting your weight.

What I don't understand is when people say we need to LEARN how to counter-steer. If you've already turned a motorcycle successfully, you've ALREADY learned it... obviously.

 

[Larry Fine]

I realized that I do not put any effort into turning my ST1300 with my hands. I do not counter steer. It is all in my hips and shifting my weight and the bike falls into the turn. I remember my brother talking about counter steering years ago, it made no sense to me.

I now suggest trying it. Try turning using only torque on the handlebars.

 

[signguy]

Try repositioning your right hand for right hand turns if you are having an issue. Instead of rolling your wrist "down" to apply throttle, think of the throttle as a screwdriver... it will reposition the wrist so that as you turn the wrist won't be pinched.

 

[Larry Fine]

What I don't understand is when people say we need to LEARN how to counter-steer. If you've already turned a motorcycle successfully, you've ALREADY learned it... obviously.

Agreed. We're talking about intentional, conscious, independent steering control separate from any weight shift or bias. Obviously, a bike can be ridden without intentional counter-steering, as millions of riders do it. This is an additional control skill, like using front and rear brakes separately, nothing more.

A bike can not be steered without counter-steering. If you're consciously steering with weight shift, then you're using that to affect the counter-steering, like the walking bicycle. Intentionally counter-steering allows you to control turn radius independently of weight shift, which allows for greater control.

When you consciously shift your weight first, the bike self-counter-steers in response using the lean to apply the twisting torque to the front end. What those of us who consciously counter-steer have "learned" is to control the lean, and thus the turning radius independently of weight shift.

Race-bike riders must use counter-steering to counter the effect of their extreme hanging-off weight-shifting. By weight bias alone, their bikes would fall over because of the weight offset. They're using counter-steering to lean the bike over, but counter-counter-steering to keep it from falling.

In other words, they're applying steering torque in the direction would straighten the bike up if they weren't hanging their weight off. Again, try riding straight with your body weight off to one side. It is impossible to keep the bike straight without counter-steering to compensate for the weight bias.

 

[jspringator]

Try repositioning your right hand for right hand turns if you are having an issue. Instead of rolling your wrist "down" to apply throttle, think of the throttle as a screwdriver... it will reposition the wrist so that as you turn the wrist won't be pinched.

I'm going to try this with both hands. For some reason I sometimes stiffen up. I'm sure that is fear (or disorientation) kicking in.

I was exhausted after work yesterday so I didn't practice, but I'm going to try it tonight.