That's one of the good things about the Helibars I have. I widened the upper bars to avoid the awkward wrist angle shown above.
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Parking lot practice
- Thread starter jspringator
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I think the difference is order of execution. I learn to steer my bike by shifting weight. The bike goes into "counter steer" and i then hold it in place.
Those who teach counter steer are have the riders push the bike into the turn then lean (shift weight). both methods work.
Those who teach counter steer are have the riders push the bike into the turn then lean (shift weight). both methods work.
Yes, they both do. I'd have to say my riding technique has evolved over the years, but I definitely use counter-steering primarily, if not only. In gentle curves, with my left hand in my lap, I steer only by pushing or pulling with my throttle hand.
On curvier roads, I counter-steer and adjust my body positioning simultaneously, using the steering torque to adjust the turn radius in response to my weight shift, which is in response to the initial counter-steer, which depends on the curve.
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Test rode a 2020 Spyder RT Ltd. today. I guess I could get used to it but it is totally different than a motorcycle. It is not nearly as refined as my Goldwing. Wife preferred the Goldwing. The ride can best be described as nervous.
U turns are a breeze!
The pitching you receive when the front tires go in and out of the ruts in the highway; not so much.
Off to the Kroger parking lot at 8.
Honestly, the Dirt Ninja (Versys 300) is starting to look better and better.
U turns are a breeze!
The pitching you receive when the front tires go in and out of the ruts in the highway; not so much.
Off to the Kroger parking lot at 8.
Honestly, the Dirt Ninja (Versys 300) is starting to look better and better.
How 'bout the rider?
Did you find it less responsive to counter-steering?Was the seat closer to the ground? Feet way forward?
DaveWooster
'95 ST1100ALS and '98 Standard ST1100W
I prefer to have my thumb and index finger always wrapped around the left grip, for steering. I have enough strength in my middle and ring fingers on the clutch lever to modulate the clutch without using my index finger on the lever as well. (FYI, I have no arthritis in either hand.)
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DaveWooster
'95 ST1100ALS and '98 Standard ST1100W
I agreed with another poster who said the secret to low speed turning involves use of the brake pedal without use of the brake lever. I've found that technique to work on bikes that do not link the brake pedal to the front brakes.
Cycle World tested the ST1100A when it was fitted with LBS in 1996. They disliked the brakes, mentioning that the bike was hard to handle in low speed riding around a parking lot.
Their test bike probably had new brake pads and had all the air bled out of the hose running from the rear master cylinder to the front brakes. In other words, they were experiencing maximum linking from the pedal to the front brakes, and they did not like it.
Maybe when the pads wear down and the rear to front brake line(s) get a little air in them, the LBS system would, like you say, not be noticably unacceptable to me. Personally, I think Honda builds great engines, but their motorcycle brakes often are not desirable. I try to stick with brakes that have no pedal to front brake linking even if it means my bike choices are limited.
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Moto-Charlie
Vendor
My experience echoes what DaveWooster followed up on - use of the rear brake pedal along with clutch friction seems to work best for me.
I've also found that using the rear brake pedal to drag the rear wheel frequently helps with bikes that have a lot of drive line lash. The first ST1300 I rode was a 2003 rental bike in the Alps. Trying to go around corners with the off/on throttle and drive line lash was difficult. Dragging the rear brake slightly around the corner helped to make the turn and kept tension in the driveline. Fortunately the 2008 ST1300 I purchased earlier this year has very little drive line lash - pleased about that.
I've also found that using the rear brake pedal to drag the rear wheel frequently helps with bikes that have a lot of drive line lash. The first ST1300 I rode was a 2003 rental bike in the Alps. Trying to go around corners with the off/on throttle and drive line lash was difficult. Dragging the rear brake slightly around the corner helped to make the turn and kept tension in the driveline. Fortunately the 2008 ST1300 I purchased earlier this year has very little drive line lash - pleased about that.
OP
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My front brake has a little judder sometimes upon application of the rear brake. I'm going to get a new front tire mounted this week and I'll have him look at it. Probably needs a good bleeding/fluid exchange.
Fan your fingers regularly, like drumming your fingers, only in reverse. Or, just open your hands like saying "hi" to the pavement. This reminds you (a) it doesn't take much force to keep the throttle in place so there's no need to white knuckle it, and (b) relax, it's supposed to be fun.
DaveWooster
'95 ST1100ALS and '98 Standard ST1100W
That's too brief for me now (but at one time, I liked it).
Push right to lean right so that you can then turn right and end up with a balanced bike that is turning to the right.
Push left to lean more to the left so that you can then turn more to the left and end up with a bike that is turning more to the left and is again in balance.
The term counter steering, as it is normally used, is use of the steering to deliberately unbalance ones balanced bike. So all discussions of counter steering that omit talk of the bike's state of balance tend to end up with a lack of consensus.
Rather than discuss counter steering, I prefer to get on a bicycle and experiment until I see that counter steering is something I have been using all along. (It is just more useful on a motorbike at speed than it is on a push bicycle.)
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I was thinking more about my assertion that counter-steering applies at all speeds, and would like to embellish upon it.
When moving slowly enough for the rider's feet to be on the ground, that's what controls lean, so rolling theory really doesn't apply. Granted, the bike itself steers like a car, but the lean is independently controlled, so steering does not affect it.
Now, when rolling just fast enough to lift the feet, the inertia and gyroscopic effects don't come into play, so you can easily pull the bike to either side, which will make the front end turn that way, like the bicycle, to keep the bike from falling over.
What I want to point out is that counter-steering is still in play. Let's say you're making a slow U-turn to the left. Even if you don't intentionally steer right to initiate the left lean, the bike does it innately. If you merely steer left,, you also lean left.
I'm saying you're counter-steering because, if you turn the handlebars farther left while in the turn, it will straighten you up, not make you turn sharper. I'm saying that, at any speed fast enough to lift your feet, you must be counter-steering.
At road speeds, whether you counter-steer first, or pull the bike over with your weight, you are counter-steering.
Comments welcome. (As if I could stop them.
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When moving slowly enough for the rider's feet to be on the ground, that's what controls lean, so rolling theory really doesn't apply. Granted, the bike itself steers like a car, but the lean is independently controlled, so steering does not affect it.
Now, when rolling just fast enough to lift the feet, the inertia and gyroscopic effects don't come into play, so you can easily pull the bike to either side, which will make the front end turn that way, like the bicycle, to keep the bike from falling over.
What I want to point out is that counter-steering is still in play. Let's say you're making a slow U-turn to the left. Even if you don't intentionally steer right to initiate the left lean, the bike does it innately. If you merely steer left,, you also lean left.
I'm saying you're counter-steering because, if you turn the handlebars farther left while in the turn, it will straighten you up, not make you turn sharper. I'm saying that, at any speed fast enough to lift your feet, you must be counter-steering.
At road speeds, whether you counter-steer first, or pull the bike over with your weight, you are counter-steering.
Comments welcome. (As if I could stop them.
)
OP
OP
Dropped off the Wing for a new front tire (and other work) and the longtime Wing rider and mechanic suggested I try second gear for my parking lot practice. Ill give it a try when I get it back.
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Yes, that's what I do. It's the analog "Rain" mode.
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New Bridgestone front tire, oil change, FOBO T valves, new plugs, new fork seals, new front brake pads, coolant flush and full flush of brakes and clutch. It will probably only be there a few days. This guy is just across the river in New Albany, IN. He had a metal shop built in his back yard and it is spotless. I'm guessing New Albany is pretty loose in the zoning regs. Story is that he retired from the local Honda dealer to set up his own shop. Really knows what he is doing.
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Larry you are correct. Bikes have reverse castor or rake. The forks are angled forward. This is what keeps your bike going straight if you let go of the handle bars.
When you lean right and the bike goes up on the right side wall then the off set it will cause the handle bar to turn in the opposite direction (counter steer) to bring you back straight. But since you are now on the side of the tire you turn right. Do try this on a bicycle first. The reverse castor angle causes the counter steer.
I was trying this today during my commute. I set the cramp buster and placed only the palm of my hands flat on the top of the handle bars and let the bike steer itself with only my balance input. HOWEVER I soon realized that the car tire on the back added to keeping the bike stable. This made me work a bit harder to make the bike turn by leaning the bike. I would never just let go of the handle bars on the ST1300 (too much at risk) but letting the bars float in my hands gave me confidence that the bike is balanced right and will go straight on its own and I can turn by leaning the ST1300.
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Tried second gear tonight. Worked pretty well. I was out an hour and actually practicing about half that. Practiced until my front brake started to judder. I figured it was getting hot, so I rode around town a little bit, came back behind Kroger and rode in left and right circles. The key is going to be riding the bike an hour or so every night.
Figure eights are fun, challenging, and teach transition as well. In my hometown, the motorcycle safety foundation people had two big circles conveniently painted on a nice big parking lot.
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I’m going to try that tomorrow. I think the key is to develop the muscle memory of how to go into tight turns. Practice enough and it will be automatic.
Yes, and then increase the speed as you gain competence and confidence. You can't go terribly fast in such tight circles in such a confined space, so you don't have to worry about catastrophe. One day in the lot it will click and you'll come to an understanding with the machine. When that happens, you'll be surprised at what you can do.