ST1300 Valve check questions

So yesterday I returned from a MC rally ( Mason Dixon 20-20 more on my ride later) and decided that today I would re-balance my CB's.

I had to re-balance my CB's because at the end of the rally I could here a louder than normal whining. I wasn't really surprised, because I have been trying to locate and correct a small vibration I get at about 4500+ rpm, so I had previously adjusted the CB's and figured I didn't get the upper pinch bolt tight enough.

The vib is enough that anything over 85mph is annoying. I wanted to really clean up an make sure I tightened everything right, so the body work came off. After the CB adjust I still could feel this vib, so I decided I'd check the valves too ( after the last adjust I figured I needed to check the valves, I just put it off ).

So the question is, from the specs below would this be enough to cause such a vib ( it's a small vib that increases in over the RPM range, esp over 4500rpm)? I checked the valves last at around 48k, I'm at 61k now. The problem really became noticeable last fall ( yes I'm lazy ). There isn't any noise over the regular ST noises.

(recorded in inches - also I can't find my last valve records , though they were within spec, but not spot on)

Cyl. #1:
Ex:.009 .010
In:.006 .006

Cyl. #4:
Ex:.010 .010
In:.008 ---> NOTE: this measurement was a pretty tight one .006

Cyl. #3:
Ex:.010 .010
In:.007 ---> NOTE: Nice fit, .008 would not fit. .007

Cyl. #2:
Ex:.009 .009
In:.006 ---> Loose fit, but .007 would not fit. .006


Also, for those in the DC metro ( O.K. really a question for Mark ), is there a dealer you get shims from? Or are you getting them online?


Thanks!

You do know that each cylinder has 4 valves, right?

:censored

Opps .

I know that, going out to check again. Just so I don't look too incompetent, my other checks included the other valves.


I guess 34 hours on a bike took more of a mental toll than I thought :.

Thanks picking up on that...

tdeboeser said:

So the question is, from the specs below would this be enough to cause such a vib. ( it's a small vib that increases in over the RPM range, esp over 4500rpm)?

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Possibly, but it's not the first place I'd look. Improper valve clearance usually manifests itself as poor engine performance, either because the valves aren't opening enough to inhale and exhale properly (too loose) or because they're staying open and not sealing the combustion chamber (too tight). In the latter case, there's potential for valve damage since the valves depend on being in contact with the seats to dissipate heat.

From the numbers you list, all of the exhausts look good. I'd put the #4 intake on the hairy edge of loose, and whether or not you want to re-center it will depend on what it looked like last time. Find those records.

Also, for those in the DC metro ( O.K. really a question for Mark ), is there a dealer you get shims from? Or are you getting them online?

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Mine were in spec at the first check, and I should come due again before the summer is out. I have a Hot Cams shim set that you're more than welcome to use for swaps. This set is in 0.050 mm increments where the Honda shims come in 0.025. The spec range is a total of 0.060, so there should be a shim in the kit that will get you into spec, but probably not as close to centered as you might get with a Honda shim. My feeling is that centering is nice, but in spec is in spec.

--Mark

You might want to look at the spark-plug gap and maybe a starter valve sync. The only other thing would be a compression check to see if one or more of your cylinders isn't up to spec.

Post fixed.

Thanks for the replies.

I did the starter valve sync in Dec ( maybe it was Jan. ). I will say I'm only %95 confident in the sync. The spark plugs and wires were replaced at the same time. The gaps were good then.

Aside from the vib the bike runs "normal" performance wise.

I checked the valves thinking (ok, maybe hoping), improper seating might manifest itself in vibration.

Compression:
What else would compression affect? Gas mileage is normal ( for me 40, 43 ), although I did notice my rally mpg was off ( I usually see 45-55 ), this year it was 45-48mpg.

I'll get a compresssion tester and do a starter valve sync, any other thoughts?

Thanks guys...

Have you checked other mechanical things like wheel balance?

--Mark

Check engine mounting bolts for correct torque?

The first time I checked my valves I only checked the "easy ones". When I compared my numbers to those posted here is when I realized I only checked half of them.

dduelin said:

Check engine mounting bolts for correct torque?

The first time I checked my valves I only checked the "easy ones". When I compared my numbers to those posted here is when I realized I only checked half of them.

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I was just thinking of the engine mounts, I'll do that now.

Black Magic said:

Do you get the same vibe reving the engine parked on the center stand in neutral?

Or does it have to be in gear?

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Any gear, any speed, in neutral... same vibration.

Blrfl said:

Have you checked other mechanical things like wheel balance?

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Yeah, this vibration has existed with 2 sets of tires, one set of tires had Counter Act Balancing beads(rear tire)/Ride on (front), the new ones have Ride on. And last Fall/late summer I replaced front bearings to address the prob.

Thanks...

Black Magic said:

Ok, but my question was what about on centerstand?

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Opps, centerstand, side stand, and my feet, same vib.

Black Magic said:

IOW does bike have to be moving?

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Nope, but it seems to stand out more when moving.

Black Magic said:

This could eliminate wheels, transmission and other factors.

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I've also tested while at 80-85mph, pulling clutch in and letting the rpm drop to idle... no vibration.


Thanks

OK, I finially got time to replace shims. ( I used a screwdriver to help pinpoint the tapping which brought me to the conclusion the valve clearance was off ).

So I thought it would be a good idea to double check my valves specs ( much more carefully ), and I found them all to be within spec this time.

BUT, I have question/concern;
I was being very carefull when lining up the the Index mark ( T1 and T2 ), and noticed that the cam sprocket markings ( e.g. R-EX, R-IN ) didn't always line up with the top edge of header ( like in the service manual ).

Or if I line up the sprocket markings correctly, the index marking didn't line up with the pointer - in this case the index mark is off by maybe a mm or less.

So this means its not perfect, and something is off. But I know from expericence ( on other bikes ) if I've jumped a tooth I'd have a bent valve and the motor wouldn't run correctly. What am I missing? I feel like the timing is off slightly, but I don't know where to go from here...



thanks for the help...

tdeboeser said:

Or if I line up the sprocket markings correctly, the index marking didn't line up with the pointer - in this case the index mark is off by maybe a mm or less.

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The clearance you're checking is between the cam and bucket when the intake and exhaust valves are closed -- in other words, when the lobes are completely out of play. If the difference in the T1/T2 marks is less than a millimeter, I wouldn't worry about it unless the marks on the cam gears are far enough away from the edge of the casing that the sprockets are off.

I feel like the timing is off slightly, but I don't know where to go from here...

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The only way to screw up the valve timing is to install a camshaft incorrectly. If all of the marks line up correctly and the valve clearance is in spec, you're done.

--Mark

Blrfl said:

The clearance you're checking is between the cam and bucket when the intake and exhaust valves are closed -- in other words, when the lobes are completely out of play. If the difference in the T1/T2 marks is less than a millimeter, I wouldn't worry about it unless the marks on the cam gears are far enough away from the edge of the casing that the sprockets are off.

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And it seems I'm in spec either way so...

Blrfl said:

The only way to screw up the valve timing is to install a camshaft incorrectly.

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Or screw up a Cam Chain Tensioner replacement, letting the sprocket jump a tooth (don't ask me how I know )

Blrfl said:

If all of the marks line up correctly and the valve clearance is in spec, you're done.

Click to expand...

I tend to agree, but I still have this vib/tapping to deal with. I'm scared to think that maybe the Counter Balancers rubber dampers ( page 12-6 ) are outta spec, or the needle bearings are. That would mean removing the motor etc etc.


What else could cause this vibe? I'm going back and forth in my head between the CB's and valves... I just can't think of a good cause of this small vibe ( review: I have a small vibe at all rpm's that gets worse at 4k rpm and makes the ST unpleasant to ride at 75+mph).

Thanks...

tdeboeser said:

What else could cause this vibe? I'm going back and forth in my head between the CB's and valves... I just can't think of a good cause of this small vibe ( review: I have a small vibe at all rpm's that gets worse at 4k rpm and makes the ST unpleasant to ride at 75+mph).

Click to expand...

If you've already done the CB adjustment, then I don't know what to tell you on that one. I'd run a couple of tanks with your favorite fuel system cleaner and see if maybe it isn't just an abundance of crud. Mine smoothed out considerably after a road trip with Sea Foam in the tank.

--Mark

tdeboeser said:

And it seems I'm in spec either way so...



Or screw up a Cam Chain Tensioner replacement, letting the sprocket jump a tooth (don't ask me how I know )



I tend to agree, but I still have this vib/tapping to deal with. I'm scared to think that maybe the Counter Balancers rubber dampers ( page 12-6 ) are outta spec, or the needle bearings are. That would mean removing the motor etc etc.


What else could cause this vibe? I'm going back and forth in my head between the CB's and valves... I just can't think of a good cause of this small vibe ( review: I have a small vibe at all rpm's that gets worse at 4k rpm and makes the ST unpleasant to ride at 75+mph).

Thanks...

Click to expand...

When I was playing with my CBs, the vibes were not like you describe. They were bad at certain RPMs, but not over the whole range (specially bad at low RPMs before the first adjustment, then migrated to higher RPMs, specifically around 75 mph, like you are experiencing, before more adjusting). In your case, it sounds like once you are over 4000, the vibes are there to stay.

So I'd go with Blrfl on this one.

Have you done the SV synch already? Helped a lot with vibes on mine, but the adjusment turned out to be way off to begin with.

Blrfl said:

If you've already done the CB adjustment, then I don't know what to tell you on that one. I'd run a couple of tanks with your favorite fuel system cleaner and see if maybe it isn't just an abundance of crud. Mine smoothed out considerably after a road trip with Sea Foam in the tank.

--Mark

Click to expand...

I tried a bottle of techcron, but I was thinking maybe trying some BG-44k maybe sea foam

MidLife said:

When I was playing with my CBs, the vibes were not like you describe. They were bad at certain RPMs, but not over the whole range (specially bad at low RPMs before the first adjustment, then migrated to higher RPMs, specifically around 75 mph, like you are experiencing, before more adjusting). In your case, it sounds like once you are over 4000, the vibes are there to stay.

So I'd go with Blrfl on this one.

Have you done the SV synch already? Helped a lot with vibes on mine, but the adjusment turned out to be way off to begin with.

Click to expand...

I've done the SV synch twice, but my mad scientist method is probably flawed. I should get a real manometer and do the SV right.

Again, thanks guys for the input... this site is amazing.

tdeboeser said:

I've done the SV synch twice, but my mad scientist method is probably flawed. I should get a real manometer and do the SV right.

Again, thanks guys for the input... this site is amazing.

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Before reading this thread, I would have said you could borrow my Carbtune for the SV synch. Thanks to this site for preventing me to make such a mistake!

Joke aside, let me know if you are interested in the Carbtune.

MidLife said:

Before reading this thread, I would have said you could borrow my Carbtune for the SV synch. Thanks to this site for preventing me to make such a mistake!

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Tom lives pretty close to me (and, in fact, used my shim kit). I'll lend him mine as long as he doesn't return it with a full tank of gasoline.

--Mark

Blrfl said:

Tom lives pretty close to me (and, in fact, used my shim kit). I'll lend him mine as long as he doesn't return it with a full tank of gasoline.

--Mark

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Thanks, I'll make sure to not to put gas in it but I will top off the manometer fluid .

Ok, so Big Kudos to Mark ( Brlfl ) for his help and for him lending me his tools...



Mark.

Mark let me borrow his Carb-tune which worked much better than my "Mad Scientist" method https://www.st-owners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36596

I found my #4 cylinder off big time ( I musta not pay attention on my mad scientist sync ). The others were pretty close. The Carb-tune was much easier to work with, probably worth the extra $$.

The idle is much better, and the ST is smoother of the rev range. BUT I still have my "vibe"/roughness/something". I'm going to re-do my CB's this weekend, my thoughts are now leaning toward maybe the head bearing ... but I am stuck for what this could be.

Also, has anyone use Sea Foam in the intake... somehow? I'm gonna try it in the fuel tank, and maybe in the oil. But I can't see a way to get it in the intake....


Thanks!!