$16,000 VFR 1200 ?

[Blrfl]

This "fit and finish" think is overrated. Yeah, the pieces fit better together, so what? Nobody I know runs around a parking lot with a caliper looking to see how much gap exists in the fairing fit.

Nobody I know does that either, except maybe the people who design and build 'em. I do know lots of people who do their own maintenance/farkling, and at least one of them (me) thinks having the fairing go on easily and as nicely as it did the day I brought the bike home is worth something. How much care was taken with what I can see on the outside is often a good indicator how much care was taken in engineering and building the stuff I can't see on the inside. Would you buy a car you believed to have a top-notch drivetrain if you had to slam the door five times before it would stay closed?

I'm certain there are things you find important that I would say are overrated, so what say we agree to disagree on that point?

The reality is that manufacturing has improved enough in the last 10 years that any manufacturer worth its salt would have to try awfully hard to build a real turd. That means the differences are going to come down to things you have to measure with a caliper or other things that are subjective. I consider this a good thing.

So you would take the VFR at $16k over a proven Connie or FJR with bags for less $$$?

The "proven" argument is a red herring. Every bike is unproven at some point in time, and if nobody bought unproven bikes, no new model would ever get off the ground. If we'd been having this discussion three years ago, you'd have been forced to concede that the C14 was unproven and had as much chance of sinking or swimming as any other new model.

I won't take a VFR at $16K because (a) I'm not in the market for a new bike right now and (b) I'm going to feel like a real dope if the actual MSRP, which remains unconfirmed, turns out to be something less than that. I stand by what I said about the hypothetical number being in the middle of the current pack. Even if it's $16K and another $1K for luggage, that's still only marginally more expensive than the RT and on par with the ST. Maybe if they got the air management right, the fact that it doesn't have a motorized windshield could end up a non-issue. Or the reviewers will get off it and say, "wow, that's worth the price of admission!" But until the bike is out there, priced and reviewed, it's all conjecture. I'm taking a wait-and-see on it, but there are some things I like about what I've seen so far.

I'm confused. There is no comparison for function, especially with the FJR. That FJR has plenty of power and is setup with bags, electric windscreen and fully adjustable suspension. The "fit and finish" does not even come onto my radar at this point.

By your criteria, I should be on an FJR right now. I don't think anyone, myself included, would argue against the FJR having established itself as a great bike or that there aren't a lot of people who love theirs. There were some things about it I didn't care for when I was out shopping in 2003-2004 and still don't care for now, which is why I'm riding a $2000-more-expensive, heavier, slower, non-fully-adjustable-suspensioned ST. I notice you are, too.

--Mark

 

[STPaulK]

By your criteria, I should be on an FJR right now. I don't think anyone, myself included, would argue against the FJR having established itself as a great bike or that there aren't a lot of people who love theirs. There were some things about it I didn't care for when I was out shopping in 2003-2004 and still don't care for now, which is why I'm riding a $2000-more-expensive, heavier, slower, non-fully-adjustable-suspensioned ST. I notice you are, too.

--Mark

I was oh so close to the FJR. Why didn't I buy one? Because I preferred the slightly larger frontal area of the ST. But this discussion was about a $16k VFR and the cost comparison to the fastest current sport tourers IFJR, Connie and GT.)

BTW, I found the VStrom is actually the funnest bike I have pretty much owned now. I never saw that coming.

BTW#2, my 02 VFR did have a fairing that fit so well, it's really a pain in the butt to remove it.

 

[Blrfl]

But this discussion was about a $16k VFR and the cost comparison to the fastest current sport tourers IFJR, Connie and GT.):

Okay, I'll finish on that. By the (claimed) numbers:

• FJR - 580 lbs, 141 HP, 91 lb-ft, $15,190
• C14 - 670 lbs, 133 HP, 87 lb-ft, $15,299
• VFR - 590 lbs, 170 HP, 95 lb-ft, est. $17,000 bagged
• K13GT - 562 lbs, 160 HP, 99 lb-ft, $18,800

On cost: The average MSRP for the FJR, C14 and K13GT is $16,429, which puts the VFR about $570 above that, or roughly in the middle. (Adding the GT to the list helps.) The VFR has the same $2,000 price penalty over the Yam as the ST did when I bought it or would have had over the C14 had it existed.

On performance: We don't have any real-world numbers on the VFR yet, but based on the claimed figures, I figure it's going to be slower than the BMW, which blows the doors off everything in terms of torque-to-weight ratio. If it has the same flat-as-Nebraska torque curve as prior V4s, I figure the new VFR will be faster than the Yam or the Kaw, but that's just a guess.

So yes, the VFR is more expensive than the FJR and C14, but the decision for me isn't entirely about how big a check I have to write. I could see there being $2,000 worth of additional performance, engineering and execution in this bike. Or, if it turns out to be a yawner, then there won't be and I'll say I think it's overpriced.

--Mark

 

[TPadden]

The reality is that manufacturing has improved enough in the last 10 years that any manufacturer worth its salt would have to try awfully hard to build a real turd.--Mark

Mark,

You hit the nail on the head - the only problem I have with "modern" Honda is that unlike the other manufacturers Honda makes no effort at all to polish that occasional and somewhat rare turd :bow1:.

Enough customer complaining and all the others sooner or later make some visible effort to improve or answer customer complaints making incremental model changes ( Honda changes the color) .

Just as there are no bad bikes - there are no perfect ones either !

Tom

 

[TPadden]

Okay, I'll finish on that. By the (claimed) numbers:

• FJR - 580 lbs, 141 HP, 91 lb-ft, $15,190
• C14 - 670 lbs, 133 HP, 87 lb-ft, $15,299
• VFR - 590 lbs, 170 HP, 95 lb-ft, est. $17,000 bagged
• K13GT - 562 lbs, 160 HP, 99 lb-ft, $18,800

On cost: The average MSRP for the FJR, C14 and K13GT is $16,429, which puts the VFR about $570 above that, or roughly in the middle.

--Mark

You're comparing known, ready to tour, prices to a guess. My bet is the actual bagged, ST/VFR difference is going to be at least $2-4K. I've been wrong before though .

 

[Blrfl]

You hit the nail on the head - the only problem I have with "modern" Honda is that unlike the other manufacturers Honda makes no effort at all to polish that occasional and somewhat rare turd :bow1:.

That puzzles me as much as it does you. The hose clamps on the ST come to mind. Still, if that's as turdy as it gets, I guess can live with it.

You're comparing known, ready to tour, prices to a guess.

Yeah, I know. I think I said I was working from a guess, but sometimes you have to. I don't think $17K is that far off the mark given the MSRPs of the current Viffer and the ST.

Maybe if I spread a rumor that it will sticker at $9,750 it will come true.

--Mark

 

[TPadden]

That puzzles me as much as it does you. The hose clamps on the ST come to mind. Still, if that's as turdy as it gets, I guess can live with it.
--Mark

I'd add heat (Yamaha worked on it for the FJR), thermostat, windshield (buffeting AND gear/motor), and wheel bearings. All turds that could have been polished years ago :bow1:.

 

[veefore]

Mark,

You hit the nail on the head - the only problem I have with "modern" Honda is that unlike the other manufacturers Honda makes no effort at all to polish that occasional and somewhat rare turd :bow1:.

Enough customer complaining and all the others sooner or later make some visible effort to improve or answer customer complaints making incremental model changes ( Honda changes the color) .

Just as there are no bad bikes - there are no perfect ones either !

Tom

I've got a few friends with FJR's - the 03 had to have a new head installed due to it being a "ticker" (bad valve guides). The two 08's had to have new ignition switches due to a recall and they chewed up their oem bt021s in less than 4,000 miles (I hear that Bridgestone has revised this oem tire). I'm not bashing Yamaha but trying to make a point.

While the ST's have their "turds" as outlined in this thread - so do the others as you eluded to. Ride what you like!

 

[TPadden]

While the ST's have their "turds" as outlined in this thread - so do the others as you eluded to.

In an effort to not elude - let me state my ignored point again - Honda ignores their customers complaints, others seem to listen and attempt to answer them.

Polish or flush; makes me no nevermind but at least try to make the stink go away :bow1:.

 

[veefore]

In an effort to not elude - let me state my ignored point again - Honda ignores their customers complaints, others seem to listen and attempt to answer them.

Polish or flush; makes me no nevermind but at least try to make the stink go away :bow1:.

Well...they tried to get my friend to "go away" with his 03' at 14k. And yes he did have the extended warranty - they didn't want to own the repair; he had to fight for a couple of months. It was a pattern failure and to this day they never issued a recall for it. I guess the owners of later models benefited from the evolution but.......

 

[Don B]

Re: price of the ST1300
Maybe HMC should just rebadge it as an Acura - or Lamborghini.

 

[Mick]

I wouldn't say my ST1100 was any more reliable. I had to replace the water pump, alternator and fuel pump in that thing.

I'm actually surprised to hear this unless you had a pre-96 model. The older version alternators had a reputation for going south as they aged. You very rarely hear of an alternator failure on 96 & younger models. As to the water & fuel pumps, I've only heard of these kind of problems on fairly high mileage ST1100's.

Folks on the old ST-List use to joke that it got boring because nothing ever went wrong with their ST's. As a result, everybody had to put up with endless threads about oil, tires and politics. :

One of the points I was trying to make was that the '96 & younger ST1100's had so few problems that they had a reputation for being extremely reliable. All things mechanical are going to give problems sooner or later but the '96 & younger ST1100's seemed to give their owners relatively little grief thus leaving them more time to ride rather than wrench. The VFR's reputation on the other hand was never quite so good.

 

[Dinkie Diesel]

The reality is that manufacturing has improved enough in the last 10 years that any manufacturer worth its salt would have to try awfully hard to build a real turd. That means the differences are going to come down to things you have to measure with a caliper or other things that are subjective. I consider this a good thing.


--Mark

Mark,

You hit the nail on the head - the only problem I have with "modern" Honda is that unlike the other manufacturers Honda makes no effort at all to polish that occasional and somewhat rare turd :bow1:.

Tom

That puzzles me as much as it does you. The hose clamps on the ST come to mind. Still, if that's as turdy as it gets, I guess can live with it.



--Mark

I'd add heat (Yamaha worked on it for the FJR), thermostat, windshield (buffeting AND gear/motor), and wheel bearings. All turds that could have been polished years ago :bow1:.

While the ST's have their "turds" as outlined in this thread - so do the others as you eluded to. Ride what you like!

In an effort to not elude - let me state my ignored point again - Honda ignores their customers complaints, others seem to listen and attempt to answer them.

Polish or flush; makes me no nevermind but at least try to make the stink go away :bow1:.

You guys are killing me here. I just spit a bit of soup out on the arm of my chair and right breast.

Okay let's clean it up boys!

I wouldn't give a plug nickel for an original Picasso but if all the aforementioned bikes are only ~ $2-3,000 apart it is a non issue. Get the one you want. Besides, comparing MSRP is as useless as breasts on a fish.

 

[STPaulK]

I'm actually surprised to hear this unless you had a pre-96 model. The older version alternators had a reputation for going south as they aged. You very rarely hear of an alternator failure on 96 & younger models. As to the water & fuel pumps, I've only heard of these kind of problems on fairly high mileage ST1100's. .

Yep, it was a 94 with the 28 amp-er. The water pump went at 5 years and 40 k miles and the fuel pump was not an instantaneous failure. I had this issue where the fuel would stop flowing in hot weather. Rode it with that issue for many years until I grew tired of it and figured out it was a weak pump (I did a writeup on Mike Martin's website about diagnosing the weak pump.) Each one of these were not an unusual failure, but it's probably unusual to have all three fail on one bike. I served me 100k miles and I was satisfied with it. I just don't buy the quality surcharge argument here (obviously.)

 

[STPaulK]

You guys are killing me here. I just spit a bit of soup out on the arm of my chair and right breast.

Okay let's clean it up boys!

I wouldn't give a plug nickel for an original Picasso but if all the aforementioned bikes are only ~ $2-3,000 apart it is a non issue.

Ahhh, OK, you have money growing on trees do you? $2-3k certainly is an issue (to me anyway.) But the point is getting lost here. You have the choice of a few powerful sport tourers, already equipped with bags, adjustable screen, good suspensions, etc or you pay $2-3k more for a bike that may not have bags. That's a no brainer to me. Of course I no longer buy on a whim or emotion anymore.

But I will agree with you about this argument can go in circles and never find a conclusion until we actually know the final OTD price.

 

[Blrfl]

I may be forced to delete the last two posts. They don't contain the word "turd."



--Mark

 

[STPaulK]

But I see you left the word "breasts" in, which is a good start.

 

[Blue STreak]

If the VFR was going to be 16K with bags, it would be competitive. But it doesn't include bags standard, and I think all the bikes Mark compared it to do have bags standard. That's a significant difference, in my mind.

 

[George]

So what's the problem with this thread. Does no one else recognize that Honda WILL announce a GT version of this bike?

 

[TPadden]

So what's the problem with this thread. Does no one else recognize that Honda WILL announce a GT version of this bike?

George

Catch up ; everyone recognizes that there will be a GT version announced.

The problem that is being discussed is that the straight VFR (un-bagged) is already priced at the borderline competitive range of other available bagged sport tourers (GT's).

Tom