A Puzzle. Why was I left stranded, yesterday ?

[jfheath]

I use the term 'stranded' in the loosest possible sense. We have come to Snowdonia for the week. Yesterday the bike was parked in the car park. I could sit and drink coffee, see the bike down below, and wait for the arrival of the RAC guy while drinking in the ever changing scenery of sunlight, mountains and cloud. There can't be many views better than the view north to Snowdonia. Occasionally the top of the mountain emerges from the blanket of cloud that covers it most of the time.

So, no, stranded is not quite the correct term. I was just unable to ride the bike. The battery was dead. Flat as a pancake.
2 days before, we had ridden into Wales from Derbyshire, and it will be no surprise that Wales offered us its customary greeting of a series of deluges. That's ok, the gear is up to it. Most of the mountain roads have oodles of grip and it was starting to dry as we got to close to our destination for the week.
The following day (Saturday) was battering down with rain. We didn't go anywhere, and the bike looked pristine having gone through hours on the rinse cycle with very strong winds.

Sunday was also wet, but we took the bike out for a short spin to see a couple of local places. It started first time, as always.
Monday was glorious. We planned a trip around Snowdonia and further south, got all togged up, got on the bike, turned on the ignition. Dead.
I know you can bump start these bikes, but you need a fair amount of power to be generated - in the Uk , headlights are always on and are a significant drain. It can be hit and miss, at the end of which the bike is now in the same state as before, but at the bottom of a very steep hill.

So we wait for the RAC. He checks the battery and it is reading 5 volts. He checks the flow of current back into the -ve post. Hardly anything.
He puts the jump start unit on the battery and it fires up first time, and then he monitors the flow of current into the battery which is steadily increasing. So we leave it running for 15 mins at 2000rpm, and then stop it, wait a few minutes and it fires up first time on its own battery.

So we go for a ride for a few hours, stopping once for about an hour. It starts ok when we return. It is left overnight, and this morning I tried to start it, and again, it fired up first time.

Now, I do have accessories wired in. There is one 30A cable attached to the battery via an easily accessible two way connector, and this feeds in to two relays. One relay is triggered when either ignition or accessories is on, the other is only triggered when accessories is on. So in theory, nothing can be live when the ignition key is removed.

Except one thing. I have Innov K3 cameras installed. These draw a small amount of current all of the time so that they can start up and close down the files correctly when the ignition is turned off. I have a connector under my seat which is easily unplugged to isolate it completely, but I had left this connected in the garage at home for 3 weeks - during which time the bike was not ridden - just to test how much drain it actually put on the battery if it was left connected. There was no significant drain on the battery, the optimate had it down by just 1 bar, and the engine fired up without any hesitation. So since then I haven't bothered to unplug the camera.

But last night, having got it back to where we are staying, all if my add ins were unplugged and it started first time this morning.

The only things that I can think of are :
That the camera power unit had failed, so it was drawing a full amp every hour;
A power relay for my accessories had failed to switch off when ignition was turned off;
That water ingress into an always live connector was seeping power away to earth.

I'll be investigating all of them when we get home, but for now, every morning will be a pleasant surprise if the bike fires up. And on Friday when we go home, we might well be in the back of a pickup truck.

Any other idea would be most welcome.

 

[mjc506]

Camera is most likely I guess. The power block is turned on/off by an internal microprocessor so bugs are always possible.

Only other option I can think of is the ignition switch not completely switching off - there are three sets of contacts in there, one powers fuses A, B and E, the second powers fuse D, and the third powers fuse F in both 'run' and 'acc'. If, for example, fuse F was powered overnight, that'd keep the dash powered, turn signals on (but no power if not flashing) and the accessory connector (quartet harness) powered. Fuse D is run/stop switch, bank angle sensor and reg/rec (plus ECU). That would happily consume power without any external signs? Fuses A, B and E would light the headlights etc so you'd notice that I'd have thought.

Still, I'd suspect the camera more (unplug it each evening?) but given the rain, the ignition switch is a possibility (full disclosure - I have had problems with my ignition switch recently, but with it not switching completely on, again fuse D)

Any major problems, give me a shout, I'm only a couple hours away.

 

[TPadden]

The only things that I can think of are :
That the camera power unit had failed, so it was drawing a full amp every hour;
A power relay for my accessories had failed to switch off when ignition was turned off;
That water ingress into an always live connector was seeping power away to earth.
Any other idea would be most welcome.

Battery's fail. First thing I'd think of ...

Tom

 

[SMSW]

John, you did not tell us the age of your battery. All lead acid batteries undergo sulfation and lose capacity as they age. In addition, vibration and bumps can knock loose sponge lead from the plates also decreasing the CCA of the battery. This, along with your parasitic drain might have done the deed of discharging your battery. A load test will answer this question.

 

[jfheath]

Only other option I can think of is the ignition switch not completely switching off - there are three sets of contacts in there, one powers fuses A, B and E, the second powers fuse D, and the third powers fuse F in both 'run' and 'acc'. If, for example, fuse F was powered overnight, that'd keep the dash powered, turn signals on (but no power if not flashing) and the accessory connector (quartet harness) powered. Fuse D is run/stop switch, bank angle sensor and reg/rec (plus ECU). That would happily consume power without any external signs? Fuses A, B and E would light the headlights etc so you'd notice that I'd have thought.

Still, I'd suspect the camera more (unplug it each evening?) but given the rain, the ignition switch is a possibility (full disclosure - I have had problems with my ignition switch recently, but with it not switching completely on, again fuse D)

I hadn't thought of that. I'd thought that maybe water was providing a conductive path to earth - sufficient to trigger my heated accessory relay. IF I had caught the switch on the heated seat and the accessory relay was turned on, that would certainly be a massive drain which would flatten the battery in no time. Thank you for the kind offer. The RAC will get us home if we have the same problem on Friday. I thought about the battery, but had forgotten that I changed it a only a couple of years ago. It doesn't rule it out, and I made some phone calls and discovered Halfords in Bangor had two in stock. So that is a possibility if It fails tomorrow and I can get a jump lead start, I can get over there and have one ready in the top box.

 

[Ryan_B]

Hi John,
I also have the INNOVV K3 cameras. I have experienced something similar as well. I have wired my "ignition on" to one of my police switches, but other than that minor difference it is as the instructions indicate (the primary power is direct to the battery with an inline fuse). I had it randomly "glitch" and stay on after my commute to work. Battery was completely dead, nothing left when I went to start-up and ride home 10 hours later.

There must be some logic shut down sequence that failed. My theory is that once the battery went completely dead it basically performed a hard reset on the unit and fixed the glitch. It has not done it since this one incident (approx. 1 year ago).

If you have not yet filled your SD card, you should be able to go back and basically see at least when the last clip was recorded and verify it remained on. Mine had several hours of parking lot footage stored.

To fix this, I was looking at several options including just wiring the primary to another switch, but the shut down sequence does take a couple of minutes - so my fear is I would forgot to switch that off if I were in a hurry. The best option I found that would guarantee it was off was something like the picture below "car delay module" you can set it up from 1-150 seconds - ~$15 USD:


I honestly almost completely forgot about this issue until you posted. I may just continue to run as-is and see if it ever glitches again. If it does, I will install a timer. Probably wise to do it any way for all accessories so there is no possibility of drain.

Good luck!
Ryan

 

[Al st1100]

if the battery is on the weak side it would and could start the bike but if you put a parasitic drain on it the battery would discharge faster.

 

[SMSW]

The best option I found that would guarantee it was off was something like the picture below "car delay module" you can set it up from 1-150 seconds - ~$15 USD:

There are things called time delay relays that do the same thing. Some allow a delay before power is turned on (after the trigger) and some delay before power is turned off - like your gadget.

 

[jfheath]

Wow, Ryan. Thank you for that. It sounds like that could be the answer.

I have noticed before with a couple of accessories - zumo, BT module. - that if I get on the bike, turn on ignition and either start the engine immediately or turn off the ignition, then that causes the BT connection to fail. I have to disable BT on both devices and then let them discover each other again. They don't like to have their start up and shut down sequence interrupted.

I've removed the sd card and replaced it with a new one. If that was the cause, as you say, it will be easy to spot.

 

[Ryan_B]

Ive removed the sd card and replaced it with a new one. If that was the cause, as you say, it will be easy to spot.

Sorry for not being clear John. I was just saying you could confirm that the camera was indeed "stuck on" by looking at the video recordings and verifying it was recording when it should have been off. This would be proof that your camera drained your battery. I don't actually think there is anything wrong with your original sd card.

mjc506 mentioned it before me, but my only assumption is the little logic processor in the power box must have had its brain scrambled and didn't get the power off signal. Once the battery was completely drained and then jump started it was pretty much like rebooting a computer and allowed the processor to restart and work correctly (so far).

Of course, it could also be a failing battery. Finding the fault is most of the fun though, right?

Hope it doesn't give you any further trouble.
Ryan

 

[jfheath]

No - I knew what you meant. I removed the card so that the video didn't get overwritten in the next few days, so that I could inspect it when I got home. I could use the phone App to view the footage, but that is fiddly and slow and it means standing by the bike with the camera running, so I had decided against that.

So far the bike has started every morning after unplugging the power feed to my accessories, so I'll keep doing that until I get home to investigate properly.

Thanks for your post though, its good to know that if I find hours of car park footage, that is a100% confirmation of how the battery went flat.

 

[drrod]

I realize that this has been talked about in the past, but it deserves revisiting.
On more than one occasion I have had a battery "suddenly" fail. ie. start fine and then don't the next time without any good reason (probably not your case though). I carry one of these just for these situations

https://www.amazon.ca/Antigravity-Batteries-Micro-Start-Multi-Function-Personal/dp/B00MQ5Z5F2/ref=sr_1_1?gclid=Cj0KCQjw8O-VBhCpARIsACMvVLNJc6grVqkCFmMdCEoUjS1Lolzl081IQGhXKQsCbnoCq0jtaNxUwqEaAhvkEALw_wcB&hvadid=208360341095&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9001332&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=9962903842820091762&hvtargid=kwd-297873431017&hydadcr=5616_9327665&keywords=antigravity+jump+starter&qid=1656513078&sr=8-1

Mine is a much older version and was a lot less money. There are many others available for less money. They take up very little room in a side case or top box. I have installed a 10ga pigtail to the battery, with an SAE connector on the end, that I use for battery tender, 12v compressor, and the jump starter. Saves having to take any plastic off.

ELECTOP 10AWG SAE Connector Extension Cable, SAE Quick Connector Disconnect Plug SAE Power Automotive Extension Cable Solar Panel Cable Wire(2 Pack) : Amazon.ca: Tools & Home Improvement

ELECTOP 10AWG SAE Connector Extension Cable, SAE Quick Connector Disconnect Plug SAE Power Automotive Extension Cable Solar Panel Cable Wire(2 Pack) : Amazon.ca: Tools & Home Improvement

www.amazon.ca

 

[jfheath]

Well, From the day of being stranded, to getting home safe and well yesterday, I had uncoupled the connectors that feed to my camera and to the accessory power relays at the end of each day, and reconnected them before we set off the follwoing day. Each morning the bike started, and it rode beautifully all the way home. So all is well.

Except I still don't know what caused it. I checked out the videos. No long term view of the car park to indicate that it was filming all of the time. But there is an anomaly....

The Innovv K3 that I have should be permanently connected to the battery. A third lead to the ignition casues the recorder to start, and when ignition is turned off, it waits until all recording files are closed properly, and then turns off the unit. They claim that this leaves very little drain on the battery - and so far this has proved to be the case.

The anomaly is that the day before the dead battery I moved the back into a better position. Not very far - I started the engine briefly to get it into its new position facing slightly uphill.

But there is no video of this. Turning the ignition on should have started the recorder. But the recorder did not start recording, so therefore it did not complete its start up sequence. I am wondering that if by turning it off before it had finished its start up sequence, it was then unable to shut down properly and didn't cut off its connection to the battery.

Difficult to prove this - but I could try to reproduce it. But for now, every time I leave it overnight, I will be pulling the plug that isolates all of my accessories from the battery.

 

[NobodySpecial]

I seem to think that there is a low-voltage cutoff device, or perhaps a timed-cutoff. For example, "cut the power if there is still a draw more than an hour after the ignition is off" type of thing.

 

[Larry Fine]

There is a device called PriorityStart that could probably be adapted to a bike.

 

[ad.hom]

I would wager that Ryan is correct, that device might even be on it's way out.

I'm still looking at on-bike camera options, and my preference would be to take the main power from the extra fuse-board I have in the back of the bike (which itself is ignition controlled). I'm yet to see a video file corrupted by an emergency shutdown, on quality hardware. But if it does go that way, the same battery that is in my Prism Tube helmet-cam is cheap enough to buy, and you could put that in-line to have a ~90min safety barrier (or some other backup battery that isn't so DIY).

Also, John, tut tut... a reminder that our headlights aren't always on, the 02 still retains the switch so I can ride completely in the dark if I so choose.

My only other question... was the coffee up to scratch?

 

[NobodySpecial]

There is a device called PriorityStart that could probably be adapted to a bike.

Nice find. This prompted me to do a search, and Blue Sea Systems has something similar (not sure if I can link to it, but it's called the ATD - ATD Automatic Timer Disconnect 7615):

I copy-pasted the description here:




Can be configured to be used as one of the following battery saving products
Timer Disconnect

• 12V signal triggers relay to connect battery power to devices
• When signal is removed the timer is activated and will disconnect devices after a preset time
• Timer ranges from 15 minutes to 4 hours

Low Voltage Disconnect

• 12V signal triggers relay to connect battery power to devices.
• After 12V signal is removed, device senses low battery voltage and automatically disconnects devices.
• Low voltage setting can be used in conjunction with Timer Disconnect. Low voltage will disconnect devices prior to preset time to preserve battery power

Automatic Charging Relay

• Automatically combines two batteries when charging, and isolates them when discharging
• Single side sensing design only monitors the voltage of the start battery
• Ideal for auxiliary batteries that are AGM or significantly larger than the start battery

Solenoid

• 12V signal will connect or disconnect relay without any time delay

It's not meant to carry starting voltages, and I personally don't have much need of something like this, but I can totally see the value.
It's also fairly large (2x4x4 inches).

On the other hand, if I were to find myself in a situation where I was regularly far away from help then it might be of value. On all of the trips I've taken so far, a dead battery in the morning is an inconvenience not a life-threatening issue. Evaluating something like this vs. carrying a portable jump pack is another factor.

 

[jfheath]

The Innovv K3 has such a device fitted. It cuts all power to the recorder and maintains just a maintenance feed. I have had the bike in the garage for 3 weeks in this state and the bike started easily.
But I have a suspicion that the circuit may be confused if the ignition is turned off before the camera has properly finished its start sequence, leaving the main camera power switched on.

 

[Andrew Shadow]

I think that you might be correct John.

On my ST1100, I had the sat-nav connected to switched power so that it powered up when the key was turned on, and powered down when the key was turned off.

If I turned the key on and subsequently turned it off before the sat-nav had had time to complete its power up routine, the unexpected power down signal would confuse it and it would freeze, but not every time, only sometimes.