ABS Braking

[Spikey]

Hi Guys
Looking for some help/advice here
I have a 2004 St1300 ABS Today is the first reasonable day to get out on it since I bought it at xmas
The bike has had new fork seals fitted and today when i was out i braked not too hard but was not a tap as the front end went down i could hear a scuffing noise, i was wondering if this had anything to do with new seals, no sooner had i noticed this and I did have to brake hard and not a lot seemd to happen and i had to move to the right to avoid the rear of the car infront, now my questions is when do you know when the ABS is working or when it cuts in, cos im not too impressed with the ST brakes i also own a CBR 1100 and if had to brake the same way with that bike then i would have been up out of the saddle, both of them are combined braskes but the ST has ABS and would seem the worst of the two, then when i slowed down on the ST and applied the front brake i came to almost a stop and then i felt, it was like a small judder.
I have only owned this bike about a month i have no real history with it so just looking for somewhere to start.
Thanks in advance

 

[CYYJ]

Hi Spikey:

Sounds to me like something is wrong with your brake system. It's really easy to screw up the installation of the front brake when the front wheel and forks are removed for fork seal replacement.

ABS won't activate unless you have the beginnings of wheel lock-up. I've got 2 STs, one a 2001 and the other a 2012, in over 200,000 miles of riding I have only had ABS operate once, and that was during a panic stop.

The front brakes on a ST 1300 are more than adequate - if everything is working correctly, you should be easily able to "throw yourself over the handlebars", as you put it.

The effect of the combined braking system on the ST 1300, when the front brake is applied, is to also apply a bit of back brake. This is generally not noticed by the rider.

We have a couple of real braking experts here on the forum, one of whom is in the British Isles - hopefully one of the experts will chime in soon. In the meantime, you might want to review some posts that fully describe how the braking system works on the ST. Go to the sub-forum ST 1300 Articles, and page through there and have a look at the articles dealing with braking. FYI, the "Articles" sub-forum is a collection of the best of the best posts made here in the forums.

This article, in particular, will give you an excellent overview: Brakes - Avoiding the Pitfalls. There is a PDF attached to the first post, download it and carefully review it, because you will need the knowledge contained in it to identify and resolve your braking problem.

Michael

 

[jfheath]

A bit late, but welcome to the forum from West Yorkshire.

Where to start ? A simple statement. The brakes on the ST1300 are phenomenal. When they are working as they should.
Having ABS is nothing to do with the issue you describe. The ST1300 will bring a third of a ton of motorcycle to a pretty hard stop without the ABS needing to kick in - the combined braking system is so well balanced. When provoked to kick in, it is an excellent safety feature.

So what is the matter with yours ? I haven't got a clue, but it certainly isn't right. Most of the braking force comes from the front pair of calipers, and mostly from the front brake lever (using the pedal also contributes to the front braking force).
You have just done your fork seals, so you must have had the front wheel off. And that means you had the caliper off.

So I would start looking at the front end. The forks, the wheels and the calipers.

It is possible that the forks are not aligned properly. With the front wheel out, the axle should slide through the hole in fork legs with very little effort.

Here are a couple of bits of reading. The first - 'Brakes, avoiding the pitfalls' - uses pictures mainly of the rear caliper, but much applies to the front as well. It also describes how the braking system operates.
Take note of the caliper pad spring, the fit of the pads, the retaining clip. The fact that it is a good idea to pump the brake pedal after replacing pads, to pump out the front centre pistons first. The importance of the state of the pad pin, and the ability of the caliper to be easily moved from side to side by hand when the pads are not in.

Article [13] - ST1300 Maintenance - Brakes- Avoiding the Pitfalls | ST1300 Articles

A close hands-on look at the Honda ST1300 braking system. These are personal observations about the things that can go wrong, why they go wrong and what can be done to keep things working sweetly. Updated April 2020 and to address more recent observations, to include information about the SMC...

www.st-owners.com

The second describes the front wheel installation process. Get this wrong, and all sorts if funny (and not so funny) things can happen
Take note of the axle spacers and which one goes on which side. The sequence of tightening the axles and the pinch bolts. It is important because if you dont get it right, the wheel and brake disc are out of position in relation to the calipers, so it is impossible to get the full braking force because other bits of metal get in the way of the brake pad - preventing them from meeting up with the disc - and creating an odd scraping noise.

Article [13] - ST1300 - Maintenance - Front & Rear Wheel Install and Front Axle Animation | ST1300 Articles

Animated sequence to show the correct procedure when installing the front wheel into the forks of a Honda ST1300. The right hand side of the bike is the side with the brake lever. Left is the clutch lever side. This is the convention used in the Honda manuals. The video and the photo below...

www.st-owners.com

Have a look, see if anything relates to your bike.
At some point if you need to discuss possibilities, we could arrange a phone call. You're in Scotland, I'm in West Yorkshire. We can't go anywhere at the moment !

edit. I see that while I was writing this, @CYYJ has said much of the same.

 

[Spikey]

Thanks Guys
When i bought the bike the seals had been fitted by the previous owner, new fluids air filter etc
Tomorrow i will take the pads out and check for wear and clean pistons etc just to make sure there is no crap in there, now the rear caliper has just had new pads fitted (by a garage) for its MOT in December also by the previous owner, this is my second ST and the brakes before were good, so its time to get cleaning, may also bleed but thats a last resort

 

[Spikey]

With an ST West Yorkshires not that far away LoL
Thankyou

 

[Sadlsor]

Thanks Guys
When i bought the bike the seals had been fitted by the previous owner, new fluids air filter etc
Tomorrow i will take the pads out and check for wear and clean pistons etc just to make sure there is no crap in there, now the rear caliper has just had new pads fitted (by a garage) for its MOT in December also by the previous owner, this is my second ST and the brakes before were good, so its time to get cleaning, may also bleed but thats a last resort

Having owned an ST prior, you know that this bike can list good stopping power in the asset column.
When you say "the seals had been fitted by the previous owner" -- is this the bloke who sold it to you doing the work, or did he have a garage / mc dealer do the work? I'd be curious, but no matter either way. Even the "pros" can bollox it up.
What is the age / mileage of this ST?
And bleeding the brakes needn't be a "last resort", on a previously owned bike. It may be tedious, but it's not difficult. And in your damp climate, the brake fluid may need a peek.
It's good to have some of the neighbors that you do, too!

 

[Kevcules]

If you're a relatively new owner to the bike , I would go through the thorough bleeding process as outlined above. You may still have air in your braking system.
If the front wheel was removed, I would look at it again and go through the specific process of re-installing the tire properly. Inspect the front caliper install and brake pads also.
If the rear pads are new, they will take a few days to bed in before they will be able to stop the heavy beast like you want.
When you tried to stop quickly, did you just press the rear brake pedal? I find I usually grab both the front lever and rear pedal when I want to stop quickly, and I do. The front brakes stop the bike quite a bit better than just using the rear IMO.

Good luck....

 

[Spikey]

Hi Guys again thanks
The previous owner did not say if he or a mechanic fitted the seals, i only have the receipt from the garage for the MOT and a new rear tyre and rear brake pads
The bike is 2004/5 it has 50k miles on it its an ex Police Bike
Cannot remember if i hit the rear brake or not i just know i was stopping as quick as i think i should have
My intention is to strip out the pads and clean and inspect the pads front and rear and clean calipers then refit and try again if the same result then i will try bleeding, i saw a video on youtube where a guy used 18 inches of tubbing this enabled him to bleed the brakes himself. Previous owner/mechanic has changed the brake fluid and i tend to believe previous owner cos brake fluid has been dropped on the tank removing a large section of laquer but he did tell me about it, its now fixed. The bike was fairly cheap so im expecting a few issues, but with the help you get here most task are within reach of most of us, i like working on them

 

[STmark1300]

Fork Alignment:

 

[jfheath]

If the front brake lever felt 'solid' when you applied the brakes, then sorting out the fluid will not fix the problem that you are having.
If you had to pull the brake lever back towards the bars a long way, then yes- the fluid needs sorting out.

At some point, it wouldn't be a bad idea to bleed the brakes to be certain than the brake fluid is new and fresh - but if the lever does not feel soft, I am not sure that it will help any - unless you have a serious blockage in the lines. You could find out if that was the case by fitting a tube to the upper bleed valve, pumping the lever a few times, holding it in and opening the bleed valve briefly to see if fluid comes out. If it does, then you haven't got a blockage. Then close the bleed valve again.

But if the lever is firm and there is no blockage, I'd work on finding out why the front brakes are not stopping you. Save the flushing and bleeding until after you know that you aren't going to have to open the hydraulic system to sort out your problem.

Just one thought. You did remember to pull in the clutch lever while you were braking ?

Ok - I'll get back in my box now.

 

[dduelin]

I'm sure you get the brakes set right soon. This forum is full of knowledgeable advice but remember the CBR1100xx has essentially the same specification brakes as the ST1300 but they stop about 150 lbs less motorcycle. That's a significant ~25% less mass to stop. The ST1300 is not going to haul down like a Blackbird but it shouldn't have any vibration or judder that you mentioned.

 

[ad.hom]

im not too impressed with the ST brakes

This statement tells me, as the others have said, that there is something wrong with the brakes on your bike.

When I bought mine, I deliberately tested everything the first week - and did so by riding it for ~ 1000 miles. Of particular relevance to this thread, I deliberately stood hard on both the front & back brakes simultaneously, to find out how hard I could go without triggering ABS, and what it felt like when ABS kicked in.

You'll know when ABS kicks in, from the juddering as the brakes release/re-apply. Same feeling when my car ABS is triggered. Braking before ABS is triggered - the ST should almost stop in a shorter distance than your CBR, despite the extra weight, unless you have sports/ceramic discs on the CBR. That's mostly due to the ABS, you'll be able to press harder without worrying about locking a wheel on the ST.

West Yorkshires not that far away

I've ridden past John's (jfheath) house at least 7 times... I'm still yet to have the time to arrange a coffee stop.

i could hear a scuffing noise

I'd put money on that being pad alignment/wear. If it makes the same noise when you push the bike forwards or backwards, it's probably a sticky piston (grab the brakes, release, then roll forward/back with the engine off, flat ground).

 

[Bmacleod]

... also, check rotor to caliper bracket clearance as outlined on page 15-19 of the shop manual. If the wheel was removed/reinstalled and the alignment was not set, or the wheel spacers were installed incorrectly, this can cause the rotor to rub on the bracket.

 

[Spikey]

Thanks Guys
Adhom that would sound about right with the brakes just before i came to a halt there was a shudder so that could have been the ABS so thats better news but the pad alignment sounds more like the problem so that s what i will tackle.
Thanks Bmacleod i will check that gaps aswell
I dont think there is much wrong but with the experience you guys have i knew i would be pointed in the right direction
Great forum i will kep you all updated

 

[Spikey]

Hi Guys
Finally got round to having a look at my front brakes
Took the pads out and they were covered in black dust and fairly well worn, when i had the pads out i gave the brake lever a slight squeeze only one piston moved out, i blocked it off with a piece of wood then tried again and finally the other piston started to move, but when i removed the wood and pushed both back in only one would come back out I have cleaned the pistons as best i can , then i did the same on the other caliper and i had the same result so it looks like the problem was or is worn pads and sticky pistons i have ordered new OEM pads and two seal kits, my only resevation of replacing the seals is the fact of try to bleed the brakes again once the pistons have been popped out. Any advice on this would be great
Thanks again

 

[Andrew Shadow]

Click on the ARTICLES tab at the top of the page, then ST1300. In there you will find several detailed articles about bleeding the brake system. Have a read through and if you have any questions come back and ask away.

 

[mortenk]

Hi Guys
Finally got round to having a look at my front brakes
Took the pads out and they were covered in black dust and fairly well worn, when i had the pads out i gave the brake lever a slight squeeze only one piston moved out, i blocked it off with a piece of wood then tried again and finally the other piston started to move, but when i removed the wood and pushed both back in only one would come back out I have cleaned the pistons as best i can , then i did the same on the other caliper and i had the same result so it looks like the problem was or is worn pads and sticky pistons i have ordered new OEM pads and two seal kits, my only resevation of replacing the seals is the fact of try to bleed the brakes again once the pistons have been popped out. Any advice on this would be great
Thanks again

It is normal for only one piston to move when pads are removed (since they will have slightly different resistance). If you can push both pistons back with your hands, I would certainly not call them sticky.

I would do some more riding and test the brakes under varying conditions. Under which conditions do you feel/hear vibrations? I would e.g. put light pressure on the brake lever and ensure the bike slows down smoothly. I would then repeat adding a little more pressure, etc. At what point do you feel the vibrations? If it's only at very hard braking, it could indeed be the ABS, but it really takes a lot to lock the front wheel on a dry surface. Once you are comfortable with the front brakes, you can start adding the rear pedal into the mix. But be systematic here - one step at a time until you determine the conditions where you have the problem.

Best of luck.

 

[Spikey]

Hi There
My new pads have arrived and the old pads are definately worn i made 2 small video clips but i cannot get the uploaded (probably my fault)
the pistons are now free to be pushed back in by handwith nothing in the caliper and the brake lever applied the top piston moves first all the way out to the edge of the caliper then the bottom piston starts to move to the same extent. pushing them back a bit till i can get my thumb in i push the top one back and the bottom one starts to move out a bit like a see saw action, push them right back and place a piece of wood where the pads would sit and press the brake lever again and the top piston starts to move until it hits the wood then the bottom piston moves out also, so the pistons seem not to be sticking as i first thought. Basically i dont think i need new seals and would the worn pads cause ineffective braking, the rear pads were changed in december for the MOT so the front should have been changed then also.
Whats your thoughts guys

 

[caldercay]

i made 2 small video clips but i cannot get the uploaded

I suggest uploading to YouTube, then post that link

applied the top piston moves first all the way out to the edge of the caliper then the bottom piston starts to move to the same extent. pushing them back a bit till i can get my thumb in i push the top one back and the bottom one starts to move out a bit

I use a thin bar across the pistons and then use channel locks to compress in the center - that pushes all pistons back equally and square.

 

[jfheath]

You didn't mention how the centre piston feels ? That is operated by the brake pedal. Don't have both calipers off at the same time (or at least without something to stop the pistons being fired out.

Check the pad springs in the caliper roof. They should be clipped into place on that centre moulding, and the wider strip should be closest to the pistons. Spot the little sticky up tags. Make sure that they are not bent over or squashed flat.
Make sure the calipers can slide back and forth into and away from the wheel when the pads are not in place but with the calipers mounted.

And as already mentioned - undo your front wheel and mount it properly. Watch the video in ST1300 articles. Get the sequence wrong or the collars on the wrong side or the wrong way round and your nuts will fall off, the bike will handle badly and it will make a nasty scraping noise with sparks flying off the front wheel. Oh, and your back wheel may lock up.

What, all of that just cos I get my left and right confused ? Oh yes.
I exaggerate of course. But not by much.