ABS vs Non-ABS

[Igofar]

Is that the bike with 2-wheel drive and tanks in the wheels?

 

[Larry Fine]

I remember seeing one in Coleman Power Sports in Falls Church, VA over 30 years ago.

Interesting how they routed power to the front wheel with a shaft with U-joints in it.

 

[st11ray]

Has anyone ever crashed on an ABS equipped bike? Reading this thread, one would think that they are invincible!

 

[Uncle Phil]

Has anyone ever crashed on an ABS equipped bike? Reading this thread, one would think that they are invincible!

Absolutely - I can think of a couple on this board - but it's just like any other piece of safety gear and like practice, it can help when certain occasions arise.
ABSII used parts for the ST1100 are very rare on Fleabay - I don't know if that's because there were not very many of them produced or they don't end up in the wrecker's yard as often as the standards.

 

[ddemair]

I haven't seen this discussed... what happens with ABS if you grab too much brake while leaned over?

It seems to me that if the ABS waits until the wheel stops turning to release braking force (even if it only takes a fraction of a second), it's too late and you're most likely going down. Am I thinking about this right?

 

[Andrew Shadow]

I don't know about the ST1300 as it is old technology now but most modern automobile ABS systems activate when the differential in speed between one wheel and the others is greater than what ever threshold the designer programmed in. A given wheel does not have to stop rotating completely before the ABS kicks in. It only has to be rotating a certain amount slower than the other wheel(s) to activate the system. If bikes work the same way one would hope that on a bike that differential is small enough to prevent a slide from developing.

 

[MajorTom]

I would have preferred an ABS model when I purchased my '04 ST1300 nine years ago (how does the time fly by so fast? But I digress ). Unfortunately, after several months looking around the local area no ABS models came on the market, so I bought the non-ABS model. Concerns about complex systems breaking down (it is after all a Honda, and not exactly new technology) never were a consideration.

FWIW, I don't know if I could go back to a bike without the adjustable windshield and the one on my STeed has been trouble free with only minor lubrication maintenance.

 

[red one]

Thinking back I do remember two club members that crashed riding their big full dresser Harleys. One had a van turn left in front of him he was going 40 mph jammed his abs equipped ABS CVO but still smacked that van in the passenger door and killed the passenger. He was in the hospital for two weeks with several broken bones. Other member left the club house when it was raining I guess he had a few more beers than he should have the story I got from my members is he slid through the stop sign. He also had a ABS road glide! This got me thinking that I wonder how many crashes are ABS vs Non ABS equipped bikes? Again I think it is a moot point because ABS will be standard on all motorcycles soon. Will it stop me from buying a new motorcycle? Heck no. But I will ride that new bike just like I ride my non abs ST1100 and that is in defense mode and never assuming anything will save me but God and my riding skills.

 

[rjs987]

@ddemair, There is a warning with most vehicles equipped with ABS that addresses the fact that the system cannot help in any way when sliding sideways. ABS will not activate if the wheels are sliding sideways. My CTX1300 ABS system (don't know about the ST system) does operate by comparing the differential spin between front and rear tires. That is also how the same system can be used for the traction control as well as even cancelling the turn signals after a turn (really wide rear tire spins differently than the narrower front in a turn). That last feature is iffy in a really gradual curve so the secondary turn signal cancel system takes over (turn off in certain number of seconds). Anyway, both ABS (and 4 wheel drive in cages and 2 wheel drive in certain special bikes) is useless when going sideways so ABS in a panic stop while in a full lean turn is not likely to turn out well. Yet another reason for standing your bike straight up and going straight if you have to really lay on the brakes in a turn (and also to be very careful to go into a turn at the right speed and entry point to start with). You are mostly right about ABS sensing when the wheel stops spinning. It really is able to sense when the wheel is ABOUT to lock and releases the brake to prevent it from locking up or stopping the spin. As @Andrew Shadow mentioned.

I consider modern systems like ABS, automatic radar braking, and even automatic steering as "helps" but definitely NOT replacements for me paying attention to my driving skills. Those things only exist to help me when I find myself in a situation beyond my own skills or when I miss seeing the hazard. But NEVER to be relied on by themselves so I can be lazy about paying attention to controlling whatever vehicle I am riding or driving.

And yet I know we cannot control everything... obviously.

 

[Larry Fine]

My CTX1300 ABS system (don't know about the ST system) does operate by comparing the differential spin between front and rear tires.

So if you lock up both wheels, the ABS will think you've already stopped?

 

[rjs987]

So if you lock up both wheels, the ABS will think you've already stopped?

Maybe. It's highly unlikely that you would, or maybe could, lock up both front and rear at exactly the same time. ABS sampling happens VERY fast. So ABS would still have another wheel to compare to and keep them both turning. Have you noticed how much, or little, space there is between the slots on an ABS sensor disk? When going down the road at any normal city street speeds those slots are passing the sensor really fast and the ABS system is keeping close watch on the timing between each slot passing that sensor. If you are really talented enough to lock up both wheels at the same time, or at least within a shorter time than the ABS samples, I would expect the system would not respond. But I really don't know for sure about that. And especially since I've not met someone yet that I know of could lock up both at exactly the same time other than when coming to a stop to demonstrate. Part of what I don't know about the system is if the ABS "computer" has a sense of how fast is not normal for a wheel to slow down and stop turning. These kinds of technology are not foolproof and not perfect.

Another consideration for mc ABS sensors is that most bikes have different sized wheels front and rear. The ABS computer "knows" about this difference and is able to calculate what is normal between the two. The sensitivity is such that if I were to install a very different sized (diameter) tire on the rear of my CTX there is an error code that is thrown that shuts down the ABS and shows me (by the notes in the chart for error codes) that one of the wheels is the wrong size for the system to work. Not perfect, but still very complex and sensitive.

 

[ddemair]

@ddemair, There is a warning with most vehicles equipped with ABS that addresses the fact that the system cannot help in any way when sliding sideways. ABS will not activate if the wheels are sliding sideways. My CTX1300 ABS system (don't know about the ST system) does operate by comparing the differential spin between front and rear tires. That is also how the same system can be used for the traction control as well as even cancelling the turn signals after a turn (really wide rear tire spins differently than the narrower front in a turn). That last feature is iffy in a really gradual curve so the secondary turn signal cancel system takes over (turn off in certain number of seconds). Anyway, both ABS (and 4 wheel drive in cages and 2 wheel drive in certain special bikes) is useless when going sideways so ABS in a panic stop while in a full lean turn is not likely to turn out well. Yet another reason for standing your bike straight up and going straight if you have to really lay on the brakes in a turn (and also to be very careful to go into a turn at the right speed and entry point to start with). You are mostly right about ABS sensing when the wheel stops spinning. It really is able to sense when the wheel is ABOUT to lock and releases the brake to prevent it from locking up or stopping the spin. As @Andrew Shadow mentioned.

I consider modern systems like ABS, automatic radar braking, and even automatic steering as "helps" but definitely NOT replacements for me paying attention to my driving skills. Those things only exist to help me when I find myself in a situation beyond my own skills or when I miss seeing the hazard. But NEVER to be relied on by themselves so I can be lazy about paying attention to controlling whatever vehicle I am riding or driving.

And yet I know we cannot control everything... obviously.

Thanks, that was really useful information. And yeah, I take turns pretty conservatively (haven't scraped anything yet), but the unexpected always seems to happen at the worst possible moment.

I've related this story before...

In the car, downhill on a short, steep slope on ice/snow. About 10 mph and on the brakes lightly. I'm decelerating and know I'm going to stop before I reach the car ahead, but I decide to "test" the ABS (ok, I'm an idiot) and stomp on the brakes. Suddenly I'm no longer decelerating as the ABS kicks on and off. I release the brakes and try to find the sweet spot again where I was before. Since I've lost room, I wind up stepping just a little too hard and the ABS kicks in again. Now, it's really too late to try and outsmart the ABS. I leave my foot heavily on the brake and slide into the car ahead at a walking speed. No damage to my car or the work van I slid into. They graciously told me to forget it.

Lessons learned: don't play with the ABS on purpose and it's not always going to save you bacon.

 

[Larry Fine]

That's something I mentioned a couple of my posts ago. It removes the driver's control to a great degree, presuming it's doing so to the advantage of, but in some cases, could be to the detriment of, the vehicle and occupants.

It guarantees that you won't skid, not that you'll stop in time.

Since it can be switched off on our bikes that have ABS (mine does not), it would be prudent to practice, and then informative to us to tell us whether you have noticed whether you feel that you have more control with or without it.

 

[wjbertrand]

So if you lock up both wheels, the ABS will think you've already stopped?

No. Besides comparing wheel speeds there’s also a wheel deceleration limit programmed into the system. This protects against sudden simultaneously lockup.


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