All brakes dragging

Willsmotorcycle

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Makefield Highlands PA
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2016 ST1300P
2024 Miles
002771
Brake fluid, just like water, is compressible, just less than air but more than steel.
Water is essentially incompressible, meaning that it cannot be squashed to make room for air… brake fluid has similar characteristics.

A quick search on the internet will confirm this.
 
Joined
Sep 18, 2005
Messages
1,440
Location
Houston, Tx
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2003 ST1300
STOC #
5952
Water is essentially incompressible,......a quick search on the internet will confirm this.

"Incompressible" when compared to air for instance, yes, but will still "deform" under pressure and brake lever travel is required to "deform" the brake fluid when applying brake pressure (You can look up the "Bulk Modulus" of water, a material property that quantifies volume (and density) change under pressure).

Typically, brake fluid will "deform" (compress) slightly more than water under pressure.

Below shows density changes (due to volume changes) under pressure:


1700881436846.png
 

Igofar

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Oh look…….a butterfly:rofl1:
Back on track people, this isn’t helping the OP.
 
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SkitzyMcGee

SkitzyMcGee

Mechanical Mastermind
Joined
Aug 4, 2023
Messages
11
Location
Tampa, Florida
Bike
2005 Honda ST1300
2024 Miles
000800
In order to understand how grateful I am to Larry (IGoFar), I need you to understand where I was coming from at the time. So buckle up.-
(Your helmet, not your seatbelt)

To make a long story short, I rode my Non-ABS 2005 ST1300 pretty hard and burnt out the clutch on some back roads requiring my bike to be trailered home.
Now back at home, with the clutch fragged, the bike became my “Garage Queen”, and like any garage Queen, she always needed a little something more. I upgraded the front turn signal lenses to optically clear lenses, replaced all my lights with LED’s and generally pampered her with maintenance items I felt were overdue.

Now this is where my mistake comes in.-

I said to myself “I want this bike to be in tip-top shape once my clutch is fixed, so I’ll work on the brakes too! What could go wrong?”

To be clear, I've repaired the braking systems on at least 5 different motorcycles of various years/manufacturers. Unfortunately/fortunately NONE of those used linked braking systems, so the ST's brakes would be a first for me.

Initially, I thought my efforts were proceeding nicely, but by November 23rd of 2023 I had spent over $200 on various OEM and Non-OEM brake parts and was about 15 man-hours into the project with no clear end in sight. After constant issues with the wheels not spinning on the center stand (at all) and losing brake pressure quickly (and overnight), the hankering to ride slowly wore my patience thin. In my bout of desperation, I went to the Mecca of ST1300s/ST1100s… ST-Owners.com (You may be familiar with it.)

I made my first ST-Owner forum post around 6:00 PM on November 23rd titled “All brakes dragging”; And to be completely frank, I expected to be presented with a few avenues I had already tried, and then to have my post fade into the endless obscurity of the internet with no resolution. I honestly thought I would have to sell my ST1300 to get a bike that I could actually understand and maintain, which kind of killed me on the inside…(Yes, I do have a knack for catastrophizing)

That was until about 40 minutes later, when a certain username that I had seen posting all over the forum responded to my post... All they said was-

“Standing by the white courtesy phone.”

Well Larry, with an introduction like that, you're going to pique anyone's curiosity…

A short time later, Larry (IGoFar) sent me a DM asking for my contact information and telling me to look at his reviews on the forum.
(I didn’t need to look at the reviews, as his reputation preceded him, but for his sake, I took a look at them)

“Al Gully” who is another member of the forum also DM’ed me to “Call IGoFar!”. I must say, Al Gully, you were right.

The day after that I was able to get on the phone with Larry, and I found him to be extraordinarily knowledgeable, not only when it comes to STs but regarding all motorcycles. It became quickly evident that I was dealing with an old pro, someone with knowledge and experience built up over 60 years inside and outside of the industry. Over the phone, he pointed out issues on my bike that I had never even noticed before, things he couldn’t possibly have known about my bike specifically, as he was over 2000 miles away and I hadn’t sent him any pictures of it yet! He was so casually familiar with the machine, that he was walking me through my own bike over the phone! All the while, he strummed his guitar for some lovely background music while I was working in the garage. To put it simply, he's a gem.

So with all that out of the way, “What was wrong with my brakes?” Here goes-

  1. For starters, it turns out that my rebuilding of my SMC with a $80 rebuild kit was doomed to fail from the start. If you look on the forum for 5 seconds you’ll see that this is an incredibly common issue. DO NOT REBUILD THE SMC. I was like you once, I thought I was special and wouldn’t need to purchase a full new SMC Assembly, that I could clean it with guitar strings or an ultrasonic cleaner. I was wrong. The SMC has too many small passageways and filters inside of it to be cleaned properly once it has been left alone for a couple of years. If you bleed the brake system once a year, you should never have any issue with the SMC, but as any owner of a second-hand ST1300 knows- “Nobody does that.”
  2. My rear caliper sub-assembly mounting bracket had rifling cut into it by the stopper plug that it mates with, this was due to improper re-installation of the rear wheel. (Specifically, the issue was the order in which I had torqued the stopper plug and rear axle. The stopper plug gets tightened BEFORE the rear axel! This is important!)
  3. Secondly, the EBC brake pads that I purchased to save a few bucks, were a bad idea. It is my understanding (though Larry might correct me below) that these pads are VERY SLIGHTLY thicker compared to OEM Honda brake pads, causing the brake pads to drag on your rotor (Even if everything else in the system is correct!)
  4. My Rear wheel flange bearings (2 ea. 91052-KZ4-J21) were completely shot, causing them to drag on the axle and get hot as hell.
  5. I incorrectly applied silicone grease to the brake pad retaining slide pins and pad springs, which are supposed to be CLEAN AND DRY.
  6. My rear wheels cush drive (Rear wheel dampers 06410-MCS-G00) were also toast after ~60,000 miles, so that got replaced too.
  7. Various O-rings in the rear wheel needed to be replaced.
  8. Attempting to use a hand-activated vacuum bleeder pump on the ST1300’s brakes is also doomed to failure. Get the Motion Pro brake bleeder tool on Amazon, it’s only $15 or so. The ST1300s linked brakes has many small valves and cavities in the system, this causes the vacuum bleeders to foam up the brake fluid rather than sending it through the lines properly. (The tool also works great for other bikes.)
  9. My brake pads were not properly inserted into the calipers, causing them to not be flush with the rotor.
  10. My caliper nipple bleed order of operations was also incorrect, which Larry kindly walked me through. (The correct order is documented in jfheaths Brake Maintenance PDF.)
  11. After a proper bleeding procedure is done, pushing the pistons of all calipers in with a flathead screwdriver, then leaving a string tied on the front brake lever and a weight on the rear brake pedal overnight can also help to coax out the last air bubbles behind the pistons.

There are too many things to list that Larry had me check, to make sure everything is functioning and It's difficult to lay the blame on one issue in particular, especially when you are changing so many parts on a bike in quick succession. However, I think in this instance it's quite easy…

My biggest issue was that I didn’t call Larry from the start!

After countless hours of over-the-phone and on forum assistance, Larry has provided me with not only the knowledge to complete this brake job once, but to do it again on my own, to assist others with their bikes, and to understand the machine I am trusting my life to, and he did all of it with good humor and style.

I'm a pretty jaded guy myself, but he made me appreciate the comradery of this forum, of motorcycling, and how helping someone in need is a reward all its own.


Many thanks to Sadlsor, jfheath, and of course Larry (IGoFar)

The parts I used- (Don’t just buy the ones I got, inspect YOURS and talk to Larry)



TUBE, FUEL JOINT * Inspect- (keep one on hand) 17545-MCS-G00 Fuel hose that joins both tanks

They get hard and crack and dump fuel on a hot engine!



CAP ASSY., NOISE SUPPRESSOR (Inspect right rear spark plug cap) 30700-MCS-G01



PAD SET, FR. * (front pads - order 2 sets) 06455-MCS-G02



SPRING, PAD (Inspect front spring clips) 45108-MZ2-016



BOOT B * boot for new SMC unit 45133-MA3-006



BRACKET SUB-ASSY., L. FR. * Complete SMC assembly 06454-MCS-G03



BRACKET SUB-ASSY., RR. * Rear caliper brake bracket 43290-MCS-G01



PAD SET, RR. * Rear caliper brake pads 06435-MCS-G03



SPRING, PAD * Rear caliper spring clip 43108-MAJ-G41



WASHER, OIL BOLT * 4 ea. for SMC install 90545-300-000



O-RING (50.5X3.5) (ARAI) * Rear wheel O-ring 1 ea. 91358-MG9-003



BEARING, RADIAL BALL (6905RS) * Rear wheel flange bearings 2 ea. 91052-KZ4-J21



COLLAR A, RR. AXLE DISTANCE (Inspect collar bearings go on) 42624-MCH-000



DAMPER SET, WHEEL (Inspect if nubs are worn down) 06410-MCS-G00



O-RING (61X2) * Rear wheel inner O-ring 1 ea. 91302-MA6-003



THERMOSTAT * You will find it frozen, order this 19300-MBT-003



O-RING (43.5X2) (NOK) * O-ring for T-stat 91361-SF4-951



JOINT, FUEL TUBE * Coolant 3 way tee, they crack keep on handy 16961-MK7-000
 
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Joined
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kankakee
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Water is essentially incompressible, meaning that it cannot be squashed to make room for air… brake fluid has similar characteristics.

A quick search on the internet will confirm this.
you are 100% correct, essensially does not mean 300,000 psi, oh, brake fluid is about 200,000 psi...The bulk modulus, K, of a liquid is the reciprocal of its compressibility. The bulk modulus for water is K = 300,000 psi :rofl1:
 
Joined
Sep 18, 2005
Messages
1,440
Location
Houston, Tx
Bike
2003 ST1300
STOC #
5952
....the bulk modulus, K, of brake fluid is about 200,000 psi..

That's a good number to check the "elastic deformation" of the brake fluid under pressure.

For example, using your 200,000 psi figure, a meter and half long brake line under1000 psi emergency braking pressure would cause the fluid to "shrink" down the line by about 8 mm, which would take about 2 mm of additional Master Cylinder travel to keep up with, which would be about half inch of additional travel at the lever,

Practically, because the lines expand under pressure, there is even more fluid volume that needs to be "deformed" which will add to the lever travel.

The DOT 5 silicone fluid is about three times more "deformable", so under the same conditions it would take 1 1/2 in of lever travel to compress. Which helps explain why it really never caught on.
 
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