Alternative Ideas

[M Rogers]

I live in Costa Rica. Last month I blasted into Nicaragua for a 3 day ride. Half way back, after stopping for a water break, my 2010 ST1300 with 60k miles wouldn’t restart.

luckily across the street was a motorcycle repair shop. Sadly, big bikes aren’t popular here, so experienced mechanics are far and few between.

the mechanic reviewed the bike with me before I left and no spark to plugs and no fuel pump power. He recently called and said the ECU is bad.

Before I blindly dump $900.00, and other ideas?

thnx

 

[St-Gerard]

Check the Fuses , easy to steal one

 

[ST Gui]

the mechanic reviewed the bike with me before I left and no spark to plugs and no fuel pump power. He recently called and said the ECU is bad.

You have instrument lights/headlights etc? Starter spins but the bike doesn't fire up?

 

[DannoXYZ]

Might be as simple as sidestand switch or neutral switch.

Need to measure resistance to chassis ground at ECU connector for those switches to make sure wiring/connectors in between isn’t corroded or broken.

Could also be kill-switch as well, lots of times they’re culprit at beginning of chain that kills everything downstream.

And of course, make sure BAS isn’t stuck.

 

[M Rogers]

You have instrument lights/headlights etc? Starter spins but the bike doesn't fire up?

correct, power to starter, lights, but not the fuel pump or coil.
To add to my woes, the bike is 3 hours away. No F1 light either

 

[M Rogers]

Might be as simple as sidestand switch or neutral switch.

Need to measure resistance to chassis ground at ECU connector for those switches to make sure wiring/connectors in between isn’t corroded or broken.

Could also be kill-switch as well, lots of times they’re culprit at beginning of chain that kills everything downstream.

And of course, make sure BAS isn’t stuck.

BAS?

 

[St-Gerard]

Any way to borrow or rent a trailer/truck to bring it home?

 

[TerryS]

I'd be chasing down the fuses (looks like there are at least 4 that need to be functional) and the relays (engine stop and fuel cut, plus the BAS) before dropping money on the ECU. Easy enough to jumper any of the relays to test them as well. Can't be an issue with the sidestand, clutch or neutral switches as he states the starter will turn over.

 

[Willsmotorcycle]

BAS?

Bank Angle Sensor

 

[Andrew Shadow]

Have them test the fuel pump circuit to make sure that the reason that the fuel pump is not working is not due to a failure in the pump or its associated circuit as opposed to the ECM.
Below is a very well done trouble shooting aid.
ST1300 - Fuel Pump Circuit - Fault Diagnosis

If there is nothing wrong with the fuel pump and its circuits, if I remember correctly there are only two failures that will cause a good ECM to disable the fuel pump. One is inoperative fuel injector(s). The other is a defective camshaft or crankshaft sensor- I can't remember which one. Either condition should register a fault code however.

Are mice plentiful in your area? Check for damage to the fuel injector wiring harness that resides under the throttle bodies. Mice love to nest in there and chew on the wire insulation. This damage will cause a fuel injector fault that will cause the ECM to disable the fuel pump. However, for some reason this particular scenario does not always cause a fuel injection failure code to be stored in the ECM, so it is a good idea to have a look at this if the fuel pump won't energize.

 

[SMSW]

the mechanic reviewed the bike with me before I left and no spark to plugs and no fuel pump power. He recently called and said the ECU is bad.
Before I blindly dump $900.00, and other ideas?

Not too many ECU failures like this have been reported. Most of of them give you a 25 or 26 code which does not incapacitate the bike completely. And these failures happen most often on '07 and earlier bikes (not unheard of on '08 and newer, but much less common). If you have a source of ECU's, you might post that here - Honda stopped making them and there seem to be none available, except for the rare used one.

 

[DannoXYZ]

correct, power to starter, lights, but not the fuel pump or coil.
To add to my woes, the bike is 3 hours away. No F1 light either

Get your bike away before they do costly permanent damage!!! ECU and fuel-pump relay and coils ALL get power from exact same source, BAS relay! For whatever reason, it’s not working. It’s upstream from ECU, injectors, coils, so would knock them all out. That’s why there’s no FI lights, ECU is not getting power! It’s not broken!!


Andrew posted great link to John's troubleshooting of EFI system. May be easier than that... As mentioned, pull and MEASURE fuses!!! I'd be trillionaire if I had penny for every time I heard, "Fuse looks OK!", but actually didn't conduct any electricity at all. Due to lowering quality of aftermarket parts, everything must be measured and tested to confirm functionality. Last year, I got 100 variety pak of fuses, over 50% of them were bad!!!



Summary of possible symptoms:

I. ENTIRE EFI SYTEM DEAD! No power to fan or BAS relays, ECU, fuel-pump relay, fuel-pump, injectors, ignition-coils, O2-sensor heaters, exhaust air-injection valve, purge-control solenoid. There is top-secret hidden 65a MainFuseB (actually fusible-link) that powers entire EFI system coming off battery that's NOT on starter-solenoid or in fusebox. If this fusible-link is blown, it would give impression that ECU is dead due to no fuel-pump prime, no injector pulses and no spark. Pull and measure that 65a fusible-link specifically.



II. ECU DEAD, NO PUMP-PRIME, NO SPARKS - however, fan relay and BAS relay have input power on blk/pink wire. This is problem with BAS or BAS relay. Check that BAS green wire has continuity to chassis-ground (0 ohms). Verify that this ground is connected to BAS relay's red/org terminal and BAS relay turns on and powers EFI system. Verify that ECU is grounding fuel-pump relay's activation-coil brn/blk to power pump.

III. NO SPARKS - but you do have fuel-pump prime and engine cranks. Safety interloc switches or their wiring not working: neutral, clutch and/or sidestand switch. Sidestand switch faces difficult life down low getting hit with water and mud, then getting kicked all the time!!! It's possible to have safety ground wiring to starter-solenoid working and starter will crank engine. But safety ground wiring between solenoid to ECU is broken, causing ECU to think there's unsafe condition.

 

[MI-St1300]

Get your bike away before they do costly permanent damage!!! ECU and fuel-pump relay and coils ALL get power from exact same source, BAS relay! For whatever reason, it’s not working. It’s upstream from ECU, injectors, coils, so would knock them all out. That’s why there’s no FI lights, ECU is not getting power! It’s not broken!!


Andrew posted great link to John's troubleshooting of EFI system. May be easier than that... As mentioned, pull and MEASURE fuses!!! I'd be trillionaire if I had penny for every time I heard, "Fuse looks OK!", but actually didn't conduct any electricity at all. Due to lowering quality of aftermarket parts, everything must be measured and tested to confirm functionality. Last year, I got 100 variety pak of fuses, over 50% of them were bad!!!



Summary of symptoms:

ENTIRE EFI SYTEM DEAD! No power to fan or BAS relays, ECU, fuel-pump relay, fuel-pump, injectors, ignition-coils, O2-sensor heaters, exhaust air-injection valve, purge-control solenoid. There is top-secret hidden 65a MainFuseB (actually fusible-link) that powers entire EFI system coming off battery that's NOT on starter-solenoid or in fusebox. If this fusible-link is blown, it would give impression that ECU is dead due to no fuel-pump prime, no injector pulses and no spark. Pull and measure that 65a fusible-link specifically.



ECU DEAD, NO PUMP-PRIME, NO SPARKS - however, fan relay and BAS relay have power on blk/pink wire. This is problem with BAS. Check that its green wire has continuity to chassis-ground (0 ohms). Verify that ground is connected to BAS relay's red/org terminal and BAS relay turns on and powers EFI system. Verify that ECU is grounding fuel-pump relay's activation-coil brn/blk to power pump.

NO SPARKS - but you do have fuel-pump prime. Safety interloc switches or their wiring not working: neutral, clutch and/or sidestand switch. Possible to have wiring to starter-solenoid working and starter will crank engine. But ground wiring between solenoid to ECU is broken, causing ECU to think there's unsafe condition. Sidestand switch faces difficult life down low getting hit with water and mud, then getting kicked all the time!!!

Get your bike away before they do costly permanent damage!!! ECU and fuel-pump relay and coils ALL get power from exact same source, BAS relay! For whatever reason, it’s not working. It’s upstream from ECU, injectors, coils, so would knock them all out. That’s why there’s no FI lights, ECU is not getting power! It’s not broken!!


Andrew posted great link to John's troubleshooting of EFI system. May be easier than that... As mentioned, pull and MEASURE fuses!!! I'd be trillionaire if I had penny for every time I heard, "Fuse looks OK!", but actually didn't conduct any electricity at all. Due to lowering quality of aftermarket parts, everything must be measured and tested to confirm functionality. Last year, I got 100 variety pak of fuses, over 50% of them were bad!!!



Summary of symptoms:

ENTIRE EFI SYTEM DEAD! No power to fan or BAS relays, ECU, fuel-pump relay, fuel-pump, injectors, ignition-coils, O2-sensor heaters, exhaust air-injection valve, purge-control solenoid. There is top-secret hidden 65a MainFuseB (actually fusible-link) that powers entire EFI system coming off battery that's NOT on starter-solenoid or in fusebox. If this fusible-link is blown, it would give impression that ECU is dead due to no fuel-pump prime, no injector pulses and no spark. Pull and measure that 65a fusible-link specifically.



ECU DEAD, NO PUMP-PRIME, NO SPARKS - however, fan relay and BAS relay have power on blk/pink wire. This is problem with BAS. Check that its green wire has continuity to chassis-ground (0 ohms). Verify that ground is connected to BAS relay's red/org terminal and BAS relay turns on and powers EFI system. Verify that ECU is grounding fuel-pump relay's activation-coil brn/blk to power pump.

NO SPARKS - but you do have fuel-pump prime. Safety interloc switches or their wiring not working: neutral, clutch and/or sidestand switch. Possible to have wiring to starter-solenoid working and starter will crank engine. But ground wiring between solenoid to ECU is broken, causing ECU to think there's unsafe condition. Sidestand switch faces difficult life down low getting hit with water and mud, then getting kicked all the time!!!

How does a functioning bike go to not starting during a water break? What changed or happened since the last start? Ground connection loosened up? Battery on it's way out and not enough juice left to power the system properly? And of course the side stand was just used. Is this a "normally" open or closed circuit? That's where I would start checking. Great write up by Dannoxyz!

 

[Sadlsor]

Good info here, I'm saving this.

 

[SMSW]

How does a functioning bike go to not starting during a water break? What changed or happened since the last start? Ground connection loosened up? Battery on it's way out and not enough juice left to power the system properly? And of course the side stand was just used. Is this a "normally" open or closed circuit? That's where I would start checking. Great write up by Dannoxyz!

How do any failures of mechanical equipment happen? Most are due to ageing or stress. Why do your flashlight batteries fail when you need the device the most? Because they were dying before you tried to use it. I stopped for gas, tried to start the bike, but the battery was dead. How did that happen? It was old when I started my trip, it gradually discharged as I rode, perhaps some lead flaked off the plates and shorted out one cell, but the result was no starting. For Mr. Roger's problem, he might have a loose fuse, or corrosion. If the relay failed, perhaps the contacts inside were oxidized and when he tried to start the bike again, not enough current would flow through the now dirty electrical path. Or, the small brass finger that holds the contact broke.

 

[DannoXYZ]

How does a functioning bike go to not starting during a water break? What changed or happened since the last start? Ground connection loosened up? Battery on it's way out and not enough juice left to power the system properly? And of course the side stand was just used. Is this a "normally" open or closed circuit? That's where I would start checking. Great write up by Dannoxyz!

Thanks! Sidestand switch is open in down position. Closed in up position. So broken switch or wiring or corroded connectors would have no continuity and signal "sidestand down" to ECU.

How do any failures of mechanical equipment happen? Most are due to ageing or stress. Why do your flashlight batteries fail when you need the device the most? Because they were dying before you tried to use it. I stopped for gas, tried to start the bike, but the battery was dead. How did that happen? It was old when I started my trip, it gradually discharged as I rode, perhaps some lead flaked off the plates and shorted out one cell, but the result was no starting. For Mr. Roger's problem, he might have a loose fuse, or corrosion. If the relay failed, perhaps the contacts inside were oxidized and when he tried to start the bike again, not enough current would flow through the now dirty electrical path. Or, the small brass finger that holds the contact broke.

Exactly! This is nature of lead-acid batteries, eh? They work great until they die. And sudden death at that! I've gone through at least 8 batteries on my VFR and every single one of them has died suddenly, half of them after getting petrol too! If I was superstitious, I'd claim that these particular filling stations kill batteries!

I've put voltmeter on dash to monitor battery and when I see it starting to drop voltage during cranking <11v, I know battery's on its way out within month or less. I'll replace it before it dies completely and leave me stranded. Replaced with lithium battery 10-yrs ago and it's been fine since.

Honda doesn't use top-shelf mil-spec components, but mid-range good-value ones and they work great for 10-20 yrs. However, time, age & weather eventually catches up to unsealed, uncoated connectors. Here's relay with bare brass/copper terminals and unsealed case. Moisture corroded terminals and gets inside and destroys everything. I think this was out of Goldwing/CBR600RR... There's replacement Hyundai relay on market that works for 1/2-price. But it too is unsealed and will die from corrosion.

 

[OldMcClelland]

great example!