Brake Questions

[SMSW]

I've read that the OEM brakes on my (new to me) Suzi V Strom 650 are no comparison to those I'm used to on my ST, in fact more than a few guys on the stromtrooper website have said they are downright marginal. I've not finished working on my bike, and have nothing more than one test ride on it (should be finished this weekend) so I cannot verify this. However, I've been investigating upgrades and thinking about bike brakes in general.

Brake Pads: One poster said EBC HH pads are a quick, easy, and cheap way to upgrade these brakes. (I assume we are talking mostly about the front since improving the rear will only allow me to lock that wheel up*.) I found a website that lists the coefficient of friction for various brake pads by part number. Since this website sells primarily auto parts, I doubt the Suzi compatible pads are listed. Does anyone know where to go to get this info? I'm just curious about the pads' relative co of friction. Obviously a more aggressive pad will wear the disk more quickly. Is this really an issue?

Has anyone seen a ranking of the aggressiveness of brake pad compounds by standard nomenclature? What I mean is, how does a HH pad compare with any other pad and what other pad designations are available?

Master Cylinder: Another poster suggested swapping the 650 MC for a used one from a VS1000; the latter has a larger piston and pumps more fluid. I have to assume the pressure remains the same. Will this increase braking power?

Front Calipers: The best way to go is to swap out the front calipers for those from a CBR600 from 2004 (4 piston calipers) by using a bracket from SV Racing. One owner said this vastly improved his braking. I'm not worried about overpowering the bike since this has been done before and and the bike does have ABS. Are there any downsides to doing this?

Brake lines: The caliper swapper also suggested changing the brake lines to braided stainless lines. I would assume this gives an incremental (not a dramatic) increase in brake feel. True or false? Since I am considering handlebar risers, longer brake lines (and thus SS lines) might be mandatory.

As I said above, this project to be is only research for now, but the information will help me make a decision for next winter's work.

*I am not interested in ground loops, so we are talking mostly about the front brakes.

 

[dduelin]

Among the grades of brake pad material, HH grade has the highest coefficient of friction and the highest resistance to fade from heat.

DOT Pad Codes

 

[Upt' North]

Brake Pads GG or HH

Find out the differences between HH and GG brake pads and learn which ones are best for your needs.

www.wemoto.com

Check out the above link re pad grading, it's not comprehensive but just proves there's no easy fix.
I tried and failed miserably to upgrade the brakes on an early Japanese three disc bike whilst staying close to original.
New Brake Lines, little benefit unless the originals are in a poor state.
New Pad Material, again little improvements are achievable but nothing massive. If the present pads are glazed and in a poor STate then improvements will be bigger.
If you are going to fit new lines anyway go for an upgrade, it can't hurt.
New pads could improve the feel but don't expect to be doing stoppies.
Same pads all around would be best, you've got ABS, you can't lock the rear up so why limit the retardation available.
Remember this is a WeeStrom and the brakes I am sure are adequate for a bike of its size and weight, I would think other than pad change 99% of bikes will be standard. I would avoid the WeeStrom forum brake expert for now and stick with sensible upgrades and see how it feels and ride accordingly. Many who say brakes are poor never brake hard enough to find out. Does it really matter if you have to squeeze and press the levers harder.
If the Wee has switchable ABS and you intend to use it on trails with ABS deactivated then my opinions would change greatly. Rear brakes in this use are a different kettle of fish.
Just my opinion.
Upt'North.

 

[TerryS]

I've had some sort of relevant experience; I have used HH pads in place of OEM, I have swapped master cylinders (on my ST1100), I have installed CBR600F4 calipers (on my VFR800 in place of the linked brakes) and I have used braided lines.

Easy first, braided lines have less flex so should give a firmer feel/less lever travel compared to (especially) older rubber lines.
A smaller diameter master cylinder will give more squeeze on the pads for a given hand squeeze but will also give a softer feeling brake/more lever travel. Braided lines offset that a bit. I was happy with that trade off on my ST11.
CBR600F4 calipers (also CBR954, VTR1000SP2, CBR600RR 03-05) are a good upgrade and worked great on my VTR1000F and VFR800 (with VTR1000 fork lowers) and give you opposed 4-piston calipers that are the next best thing to radial mount calipers. And the donor bikes are very common so not expensive.
EBC HH pads are nice consistent pad with a little more initial bite than an OEM pad; I have not noticed any adverse effects but they are a bit noisier (hiss) than OEM when you use them.

 

[Upt' North]

Just an observation - the brakes on my ST1100T - double pistons all round - were hardly adequate for the size and weight of the bike. I tried a number of things but by far the best solution was to get the ST1100AY

For the ST1100T I found that regular cleaning of pads and disc surface helped.. why would this be so ? Well I changed the bearings and there was some black grease in there, with fine trail marks radiating out. Seems the grease was being spun out of the hub and applying a very thin film over the disc surface. Things improved, but the ABS model has superb brakes in comparison.

Like the man says...........sometimes it's better to move on.
Sometimes not.
Upt'North.

 

[Lowndes]

SMSW,

I have a Suzi '06 SV650 but have not noticed any poor braking (yet). The PO may have replaced the pads, not sure. No ABS, tho. The linked brakes on the ST do make other brakes look bad.

Galfer and Spiegler make the PTFE (braided SS) brake line kits for most bikes. Each order is "made to order" because of all the possible combinations of colors and lengths. As Upt' North and TerryS noted they don't improve the braking much but if your OEM "rubber" hoses are 15 years old they and you are living on borrowed time. DOT4 eats paint, plastic, and rubber brake lines. AMHIK. Replace ALL the flexible lines on the bike, clutch line, too.

 

[dwalby]

Master Cylinder: Another poster suggested swapping the 650 MC for a used one from a VS1000; the latter has a larger piston and pumps more fluid. I have to assume the pressure remains the same. Will this increase braking power?

larger piston = more area, so whatever force is applied at the brake lever by definition results in less pressure per unit area compared to the same force applied to a smaller piston. Also more area means more fluid displaced for the same amount of brake lever travel, causing more displacement of the brake pads, so you will have less "feel" than with a smaller piston. Bottom line is you want as small a piston area as practical without requiring too much lever travel to produce the desired stopping force, because that will give you the best "feel" in terms of being able to modulate the brake pressure optimally.

 

[dmerc]

My 06 Wee Strom's brakes suit me fine. Simple, easy to replace pads, and they stop. No ABS, but again, that keeps it simple...just the way I like it! I had a couple 1000 Vstroms in the past. The 650 is a hoot, but no power wheelies, dammit! ;o) Just added an 05 ST1300, and already nervous over the needed brake fluid replacement. I'm an ex farm boy, I reeeally prefer simple!

 

[CYYJ]

Among the grades of brake pad material, HH grade has the highest coefficient of friction and the highest resistance to fade from heat.

Dave:

Just out of curiosity, do you know what grade the OEM brake pads on the 1100 and 1300 are?

Michael

 

[dduelin]

Dave:

Just out of curiosity, do you know what grade the OEM brake pads on the 1100 and 1300 are?

Michael

The 1300 OEM pads are HH. I don’t know about the 1100.

 

[CYYJ]

Thanks David.

Michael

 

[dwalby]

The 1100 are also HH.

 

[SMSW]

My 06 Wee Strom's brakes suit me fine. Simple, easy to replace pads, and they stop. No ABS, but again, that keeps it simple...just the way I like it! I had a couple 1000 Vstroms in the past. The 650 is a hoot, but no power wheelies, dammit! ;o) Just added an 05 ST1300, and already nervous over the needed brake fluid replacement. I'm an ex farm boy, I reeeally prefer simple!

The 1300's brakes are not complicated to bleed. If you can bleed any other vehicles brakes, you can do the ST - it is simply a matter of more steps, but aside from the plethora of bleed nipples and two reservoirs, it is not a big deal. Removing and tilting the SMC is again, nothing more than unbolting it and tilting it slightly. Nothing to worry about. Certainly not like fighting the computer in a 737 Max 8 when the angle of attack indicators go blewy.

There are more than a few posters on the VS website who say the brakes are indeed designed for the dual purpose bike, and if you are on the street and simply apply a handfull of pressure to the lever, the bike will stop just fine, thank you. I don't intend to take mine off road on anything other than the occasional gravel road that turns up now and then, and my riding style is more relaxed than aggressive. However, I do prefer a lighter and more aggressive brake. Note this is all speculation at this point because I have not spent enough time on the bike to become familiar with the brakes, or anything for that matter. And the mods that I mentioned - all used parts, calipers, master cylinders, new pads, new hoses, are reputed to give the bike's brakes more of a sport bike's braking feel. At today's used prices, this is an expensive upgrade, c. $400-500, and I can honestly see myself working to get used to the OEM setup.

BTW, I have no intention of doing wheelies.

Thanks to all, esp dduelin and Upt'North for the links.

 

[oslin2012]

My 06 Wee Strom's brakes suit me fine. Simple, easy to replace pads, and they stop. No ABS, but again, that keeps it simple...just the way I like it! I had a couple 1000 Vstroms in the past. The 650 is a hoot, but no power wheelies, dammit! ;o) Just added an 05 ST1300, and already nervous over the needed brake fluid replacement. I'm an ex farm boy, I reeeally prefer simple!

I run an ST1300 and a v strom 650 and I have read about peoples concerns about the v strom brakes but I have found the brakes on my 2015 v strom to be fine if I slam them on the ABS comes in big time what more do you want I do not know what all the fuss is about.