Can't go to the CT dark side, but what about flipping out and going "grey side"?

Ned in Utah

Ned in Utah

Joined
Apr 8, 2017
Messages
174
Location
Utah
Bike
1994 ST1100
STOC #
9042
I'm starting to get my ducks in a fow for my 5000 mile Canada trip this summer. Of course tires for my 94 nonABS ST1100 are at the front of my mind. So after through almost every tire thread I can find, I came across something I hadn't considered.

I'm looking for mileage and decent handling ( I don't drag my pegs) so don't think I could go to the CT dark side, but I when searching front tire threads, I stumbled acoss a few posts where guys were putting rear tires on the front end of their bikes. Whoa, that's like "grey side"! The main reason I can determine they'd do this is mileage, because rear tires have tons thicker rubber than the fronts do.

There's lots of discussion about spin directions and all, and I've read all that I could find, many that I couldn't understand cause I'm not a mechanical engineer, however it seems to me after fumbling through them, then going to tire sites and looking closely at the tread sypes on lots of different tires, the direction of the tread for a front tire is the reverse of what you'd find on a rear tire. I actually noticed this myself years ago when I put my first Metzler on my XS1100 in 1981. Looking at the sype direction, I thought for sure they'd put it on backwards, but the arrow on the sidewall said it was supposed to look "backwards". So flipping a rear tire so that it spins backwards and mounting it on the front would put the tread "backwards" in line with what you would usually find on a front tire.

I know lots of folks would say to never do this. I suppose those are the same folks who would tell me it's instant death to run a radial front tire and a bias rear, something that I've been doing on my V65 Sabre for ten years since rear radials are really hard to find for that beast. But, I'm a thinking out of the box sort of guy, so I'm going to order a Bridgestone BT45 110/80H 18 that I'm going to flip and put on the front.

I'd love to hear from anyone with any "actual" experience going to the grey side with this, as in having done this and survived to tell about it. And I suppose it's ok for all the nay sayers who have no actual experience to chime in too!
 
I think the faithful call that double darkside.

FWIW some bikes came out of the factory running radial fronts and bias rears as OEM.
 
I have a 2000 ST1100 it does not have ABS. I have run the 110/80H-18 Bridgestone Battlax BT45 Rear on the front now for the last 3 tires. I mount my own tires and run it with the direction arrow as listed on the tire. I have not had any issues with it this way, & average 30K on them. Currently have just over 23,500 on the front one now. And I don't drag pegs either.

Gary.
 
Some tires are called 'universal' and can be used on the front or rear. Every one of those that I have seen have two separate directional arrows, pointing in opposite directions. Thus, reversing direction when transposing is correct.
 
I thought double dark meant car tires front and rear. I've seen posts about putting a rear motorcycle tire on the front and also reversing the mounting direction. I have no idea behind the reasoning for that. I though manufacturers that specified a mounting direction did so based on water dispersal.

Given that the front tire lasts longer than the rear in most cases I'm wondering about the tradeoff between handling and economy and longevity.

I don't have any horse in this race either but like oil / oil filter threads I can't look away. :rofl1:
 
So front tires wear more slowly than rear tires. But you want to put a rear tire on the front. You say you don't want to do CT. Are you leaving a bike tire on in the back?

I guess my confusion stems from the fact you say you don't scrape pegs so that tells me you're easy on tires. How about just putting on a fresh set of bike tires before you leave. Surely quality tires will last 5K miles.
 
ST Gui said:
I thought double dark meant car tires front and rear.
Click to expand...

Very few folkf mount car tires on front, heck, very few bikes but maybe custom jobs can handle them.

Double dark is car tire rear and rear motorcycle on the front, in whatever spin direction you choose. (Personally I follow the arrows, I'm just that way.)
 
Ned in Utah said:
I'm starting to get my ducks in a fow for my 5000 mile Canada trip this summer. Of course tires for my 94 nonABS ST1100 are at the front of my mind. So after through almost every tire thread I can find, I came across something I hadn't considered.

I'm looking for mileage and decent handling ( I don't drag my pegs) so don't think I could go to the CT dark side, but I when searching front tire threads, I stumbled acoss a few posts where guys were putting rear tires on the front end of their bikes. Whoa, that's like "grey side"! The main reason I can determine they'd do this is mileage, because rear tires have tons thicker rubber than the fronts do.

There's lots of discussion about spin directions and all, and I've read all that I could find, many that I couldn't understand cause I'm not a mechanical engineer, however it seems to me after fumbling through them, then going to tire sites and looking closely at the tread sypes on lots of different tires, the direction of the tread for a front tire is the reverse of what you'd find on a rear tire. I actually noticed this myself years ago when I put my first Metzler on my XS1100 in 1981. Looking at the sype direction, I thought for sure they'd put it on backwards, but the arrow on the sidewall said it was supposed to look "backwards". So flipping a rear tire so that it spins backwards and mounting it on the front would put the tread "backwards" in line with what you would usually find on a front tire.

I know lots of folks would say to never do this. I suppose those are the same folks who would tell me it's instant death to run a radial front tire and a bias rear, something that I've been doing on my V65 Sabre for ten years since rear radials are really hard to find for that beast. But, I'm a thinking out of the box sort of guy, so I'm going to order a Bridgestone BT45 110/80H 18 that I'm going to flip and put on the front.

I'd love to hear from anyone with any "actual" experience going to the grey side with this, as in having done this and survived to tell about it. And I suppose it's ok for all the nay sayers who have no actual experience to chime in too!
Click to expand...
Why not just put T31's front and rear and they'll do that ride and plenty more with ease.
Just saying. After all why sweat the small stuff.
Upt'North.
 
Have to agree. Your trip is 5000 miles. There are a number of good motorcycle tires that will easily last that long.
 
Ned in Utah said:
I'd love to hear from anyone with any "actual" experience going to the grey side with this, as in having done this and survived to tell about it. And I suppose it's ok for all the nay sayers who have no actual experience to chime in too!
Click to expand...

For both of my ST1100s, I run a 110/80-18 Bridgestone BT45 rear on the front and a 160/70-17 Michelin Commander II on the rear. I've been through several sets of these and get about 25k miles off the BT45 and 20k off the Commander II. I ride about 20-25k miles per year... 10k commuting and 10-15k touring. I've tried the BT45 in both directions and can't tell a difference. I do run Counteract beads in both and the tires wear very well. I'm certainly no Mark Marquez, but I'm no grandpa either and can keep up with most anyone I ride with on these tires, although a 2-up ride blew by me on the Dragon one day, and I couldn't catch him! Heck, I couldn't even see him after a few turns. ;)
 
Thanks for the input guys. Guess I should explain that I'm NOT considering going with car tires on either end. Just came across it in the Dark Side thread when I was perusing tire threads. The flat profile just doesn't make sense to me when we ride so much on the shoulders of the tread when leaning over. However in that thread was where I first came across the idea of running a REAR tire on the front. I also hadn't considered it either till I ran across some guys like paulcb doing it in some of the tire threads. Don't know what they call it, so I dubbed it Grey Side. As I get older I find there is very little black and white, just lots of grey.

My motivation here I guess is that I'm retired and doing lots of riding, but I'm sick of having to spend so much of my meager income for high priced tires that don't really provide much more mileage stability, handling or anything else than the lower priced tires. Maybe in a race senario they'd be worth it, which this isn't. They just cost ALOT more without much more return. I'd rather spend the money actually going somewhere. I'm trying to come up up with some alternatives seeing as how I'm buying two sets of tires for two to three bikes each year. Starts getting expensive.

The other issue with the ST1100 is that it's getting to be like my Sabre, in that there just aren't that many choices anymore since most of the new sport touring bikes have the super fat low profile tires and the manufacturers aren't building them for our older bikes. So we're already having to mix and match tire brands, which in itself is often considered a no no in many circles. A 110/80-18 can be tough to find in any brand. I used to run Pilot Road 2. They quit building that then went to Pilot Road 3. Ok, but now we have the Pilot Road 4 and even 5 with no mention at all of a 110/80/18. Not to mention they are upwards of $150 for a front and $200 for a rear.

I don't seem to be the only guy tired of high priced tires that only last a few thousand miles. I can just about put four tires on my Altima that will last 60,000 miles, cheaper than two tires on my ST that I might get 7000 miles out of. I've yet to find a rear tire that will last more than 7000-8000 and still be something you'd hop on and ride a 1000 miles on a lark. Oh I know some may go longer, but none that I really want to have on my bike as towards the end they have little tread, are often cupped, the rubber has become petrified and they aren't really that much better than a maypop slick, especially on wet roads. So I'm thinking which is better, one super high priced tire that might go 7000 miles and be questionable for the last couple of thousand, or TWO lower priced tires that will give me new rubber twice instead of once on ONE high priced tire? I'm looking at having to put tires on now, then riding all summer, then another set on just before I head to Canada so I can ensure they'll make it.

I ran across this vid on youtube of a BMW rider who feels the same and has gone to Shinko tires for the same reason. Low price, same rewards.

So I'm going to try a 777HD on the rear. Found one for $110 delivered.

I considered a Shinko Verge 011 (their sport touring tire which is a 120/70-18) for the front, but found a couple of reviews that said it was a great dry road tire, but had no sipes across the tread which made it slippery and would lose traction on wet roads. Where I'm going, Glacier Nat'l Park, Banff, Prince George, Vancouver and the Pacific northwest and back, I'm pretty sure there will be wet roads, so lots of front tread appealed to me, hence the running the meaty rear BT45 on the front. $93 delivered. Don't know if any of this makes any sense or not, as it seems the older I get, the less I know. I'll let you know how it works.
 
I usually buy my tires on line through Rocky Mountain ATV/MC and I get good prices. I invested in a good No-Mar Tire machine and a Pro-Cycle Drop Tail Pneumatic Motorcycle Lift to help with the installation. I do my own mount and balance. I go through one maybe two sets of tires a year and I've found that Owning a fully equipped Shop sure does help to cut down on my tire costs. This may not be a viable option for everyone but I already had the Shop.
 
Reviews on Shinko tires are all over the map. I avoided them for this reason. Hope your experience is a good one. Let us know.
 
Hi Ned:

I have no experience running any kind of tire other than the size that Honda specifies for my motorcycle, however, my experience has been that the front tire always lasts about twice as long as the back tire. So, if you are investigating alternate possibilities for tire fitment with the goal being to get more mileage out of a tire, you might want to focus on what your options are for the REAR tire.

I have a 2001 ST 1100 ABS - not sure if your bike is an ABS or not (I understand that the ABS and non-ABS bikes use different tire sizes). I recall Uncle Phil mentioning that the Metzeler tires give great handling, but the Bridgestone tires last longer. I use Metzelers on my 1100, and it is true - they are great handling tires, but don't last as long as I would like.

On my ST 1300, I use Michelin PR4 GT tires. They last forever - at least twice as long as any tire for the 1100. Unfortunately, Michelin does not make this tire in the size that the ST 1100 ABS uses.

Michael
 
I hate changing tires before they are worn out, cause the ones I have on there aren't. But I'm looking at the 5000 mile Canada trip, so I opted to change them out.

I had been running a Shinko 777HD on the rear. Ran it for 2840 miles and it probably would have been fine for the trip as it hardly shows any wear, but I decided to change it. It's been a terrific tire. Never even thought about it during the 1004 mile round trip I took to New Mexico and back last weekend. 18 hrs of riding over two days between 100 temps in Farmington, to 40's in rain on top of Cumbres Pass out of Chama. Beautful ride through Moab to Naturita, Ouray, Silverton into Durango!

Some guys poo poo Shinko cause they are made in China, but they cost about half what the Michelin that I replaced it with that was built in Thailand and it was a great tire. So there ya go.

I probably should have put another Shinko on as it was a terrific tire, but after reading every post I could find, I opted for the Michelin Commander 160/70B 17. Man, that's the toughest tire I've ever mounted and I've done a few! Great looking tire though. Didn't take a single weight to balance it, which is the same thing I could say about the Shinko. I've had the ST up to right at 100 mph with the Shinko and it and it always felt stable and smooth. I always run my tires at 42 psi and they would pretty much stay within a pound or so week after week. I check them regularly.
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On the front I had a Michelin Pilot Road 3. That has been a terrific tire too. It has 7326 miles on it. It looks like it's probably 2/3rds worn, and would probably be fine for 3000 or so before it would be done. Never burped once. I mixed the radial front with the bias rear and the best thing I can say about those tires is that I never really thought about them much as they just performed well. It's a shame Michelin doesn't build the Pilot Road that will fit my 94 ST1100 anymore.

For the front, I opted to go with a Bridgestone Battlax BT45R 110/80 18 rear tire mounted backwards. It didn't take any weight to balance either. Lots of sipes which I'll probably need as I'm expecting it to be wet in western Canada and the Washington peninsula that we're planning to ride. North through Idaho and Montana through Glacier Natl Park then Banff, Jasper and to Prince George, then across to Vancouver and down into Washington.

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I'll keep them boh, cause I might put them back on some time, especially the Shinko as it's probably 90% still.
I'll let you know how the new tires do on the Canada tip.
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My bike came to me from the PO with a BT45 rear on front and a Michelin Commander on back. I could not stand them, so I took them off and put a G547 Exedra on front and a BT-020R on the rear. I don't care how long they would have lasted, the bike is more fun to ride with correct tires in the correct locations.

BTW, the reason universal tires are reversed when run up front is because of the direction of tire cord overlap. The predominant force on a front tire is braking and the predominant force on a rear tire is acceleration. These act in opposite directions. Universals will have front and rear directional arrows. A tire not meant for front mounting will only have a single direction arrow and usually some kind of arrogant tire engineer statement like "REAR USE ONLY". What a bunch of killjoys. They design tires for a living and have no idea of the proper application. Ah-rummpf! If you are using a non-universal rear tire on front, you can choose between orienting it so the tread and siping makes sense, or so the cord overlap is correct. You will not get both. Many people have survived wearing out multiple sets doing it both ways. Many people say that BT-045's on front handle just as well as a correct front tire. Many people say not so.

As PopEye says... Ya pays ya nickel, and ya takes ya choice.

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