Clutch issue when shifting

[WhiteSparrow]

Hi Guys,

I became a proud owner of an ST1300 and I love the bike!

Unfortunately I have issues with the clutch. I read many if not all of the post in this regard but my issue is a bit different than the others.
Here is the story - All fluids(brake, clutch, motor oil, coolant) and filters(Oil, Air) have been changed 3000KM ago. The issue with the bike is that every time i change a gear I can feel with my toes and hear how the gears are biting on their teeth.
It is like I'm shifting without the clutch engaged. This happens through all of the gears, both up and going down(more noticeable going down). 1st gear is especially bad as when I shift into first I first hear a loud GRRRRRR and then it goes into gear. The situation is the same for both hot and cold bike. I'm forced to start the bike with the clutch engaged and on 1st and to downshift to 1st prior stopping and then holding again the clutch to avoid the teeth of the gearbox being abused.
When I have the bike running, the clutch pulled and the bike is in gear(1st) and no brake is applied the bike doesn't move forward, however if the bike is cold, in gear and not running i can feel resistance when I try to push it forward.
I tried putting the bike in 1st, applying the brakes and slowly disengaging the clutch and the bike stalls, which I think shows that the clutch still has life in it.

P.S. I have also lubed the gear lever as advised in one of the threads- didn't help.

Please let me know how to find a cure for this as I'm worried not to damage the gears.

Cheers to all!!

 

[st11ray]

Do you know what kind of motor oil has been used in the bike? If the previous owner has been using automotive oil with friction modifiers, your clutch plates may be the problem.

 

[WhiteSparrow]

It is a retired police bike with 84K on the clock, I presume/hope it was maintained well as a police bike. The oil I have in it now is Castrol Power RS 10W40.
Can you please advise what are my options for the clutch plates and what might be wrong with them?

Thanks!

 

[Rubberdarts]

New clutch fluid but perhaps it wasn't bled properly, bleeding again may produce a better clutch feel, it's quite simple but does require you remove the left side fairing.

 

[Snave]

If you put it on the centre stand so the rear wheel is off the ground, start it up and put it in first gear, when the clutch is fully in (so should be disengaged) does the rear wheel spin like it's still being driven? If it does spin, can you stop it rotating with carefully placed foot - or is the force rotating it more than your foot can resist? If this is the case, then my guess is the clutch really isn't fully disengaging when you pull it in. Another bleed may be simplest option, maybe followed by an oil change (or even two changes to really flush out the wet clutch).

 

[WhiteSparrow]

Hi Snave, thank you for the tip. I did what you recommended and after placing my foot carefully to stop the rear wheel spinning it stopped. Then I released the wheel with my foot and it turned less than a quarter and it stopped on its own. I disengaged the clutch a bit to repeat the test and everything was repeated showing the exact same results.
Does that mean that I just need to bleed the system to resolve?
I'm getting my doubts if the STealership did any job properly as I saw how they bleeded my brake system - the old way, like the bike doesn't have a LBS. If I remember correctly the manual says that the brake system needs to be vaccumed from the control unit as well, am I right?
How is the clutch bleeding done - the old pumping method or I can vacuum it as well?

Thanks for all of the guys who commented and gave their valuable feedback!

 

[flyfisher]

There is a bushing in the clutch lever the pivot bolt goes through....check to see if that is worn out of shape...a few here had that problem...easily replaceable...good luck, enjoy the ride.....ff

 

[T_C]

Does that mean that I just need to bleed the system to resolve?

Hopefully

If I remember correctly the manual says that the brake system needs to be vaccumed from the control unit as well, am I right?

The reservoir does need to be drained, if that is whjat you mean by the control unit. Or do you mean the PCV, there is a bleed point there that needs to be used.
But you don't have to use vacuum, you can use the traditional open, squeeze, close, release method. Try a MotionPro, use Speed Bleeders, or vacuum it with a pump.

How is the clutch bleeding done - the old pumping method or I can vacuum it as well?

Yes and yes

 

[T_C]

bleeding again may produce a better clutch feel, it's quite simple but does require you remove the left side fairing.

Can actually be done with just dropping the lower left fairing. 6 bolts and 3 plastic rivets?

(or even two changes to really flush out the wet clutch).

Just to clarify for others... the wet clutch refers to the engine oil bathing the clutch plates. The clutch fluid you bleed only operates the slave cylinder.

 

[MaxPete]

+1 on all of that.

....and the clutch fluid is DOT-4 brake fluid (same as the stuff used in the actual brake system - but the clutch and brake hydraulic systems are entirely separate). Also available is DOT-3 and sometimes you may see DOT-5 - but our bikes use only DOT-4 and it should not be mixed with anything else.

NOTE: do NOT get any brake fluid on anything that is painted nor in your eyes. It is nasty stuff.
Also - be sure to only use fluid from a new un-opened container. It absorbs water and water is what causes most of the problems with brake and clutch hydraulic systems. DOT-4 is widely available and it is not expensive - so buy a new bottle and toss out (in an environmentally correct fashion, of course) anything you have that is older than say...a couple of weeks or so.

 

[WhiteSparrow]

OK, the clutch fluid is changed and bled now. The bushing is OK. I can feel resistance in the clutch lever at about 0.4 inches after pulling the lever. The resistance is felt all the way untill fully compressed. If I pump up the clutch it gets a bit harder, which I think is normal. When released and pulled again in a second it is normal again.
Here is a link for you guys to hear the loud clunk and nasty GRRRRRR I get when I put it in gear:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BwWQ8kT6mT-oVmtzRGxJRmxuTVk

Sorry that the phone fell back, you can get the sound tough.

The gear I select is 1st - first time I put it in gear I raised the rpm to 1500, the second time at normal idle - 1000-1100rpm. the third time it is at 2000rpm and the forth at 2500rpm. At this stage you can hear that it starts to make the GRRRRR sound.
Usually my bike is at 2000-2500 rpm idle when cold(morning temp is around 5-6 degrees Celsius). and if I don't get in gear prior I start the bike you can imagine what kind of nasty GRRRRRRRR I get from the gearbox.

I also think that the clunk is quite loud but that could be me, or not?
What should I look into next? Should I change the clutch plates, both the metal and ferodo ones?

Thanks for your help in advance!

 

[Upt' North]

Sparrow,
You state it's an ex police bike with about 80k, whether that is KM or miles its an awful lot of Police usage. If the clutch is bled and the slave cylinder operating then it may be time to change the plates. The plates will have had a lot of abuse, although they may have already been changed of course. By abuse I mean the Police use can be very hard. Is it UK or EU, in the UK the bike would have most probably been used on slow clutch slipping escort work and I would presume the same over there, it could also be worth rebuilding the slave cylinder whilst it is off. Hope it helps but they all CLONK if not GRRRRING.

 

[Igofar]

Ex police motor.....high mileage.....your clutch plates are toast.
I would also change the bearing on the road while your in there.
Search forum for article on how to replace clutch. Not hard.
If you keep riding it as is, you will keep damaging things.

 

[WhiteSparrow]

@Upt'North, @Igofar,

Thank you for the responses. I will order a new clutch, change it and then write back to let you know the outcome.

Best regards,

WhiteSparrow.

 

[WhiteSparrow]

I just arrived at work and was thinking on the way - if the clutch is gone, then why doesn't it slip? I have also tested with applying the brakes and then slowly releasing the clutch, while in 1st gear, and the bike stalls.
Isn't the above an indication that there is still life in the clutch plates?

Can anyone please make a short video, same as mine, that will capture the sound of his bike going in 1st gear from idle and from 2000rpm?

Thank you for your support!

 

[Upt' North]

Sparrow,
No point me doing a video as mine is an 1100, but you do make valid point re clutch not slipping.
Personally I would rip it down and examine the clutch and have a service kit for the slave cylinder at hand. The slave cylinder seals failing could give the issues you describe and if you do decide to service it use a genuine kit. It won't break the bank and at least you will know if that was the fault or not.
Sorry I can't be more help but I think it will be trial and error diagnosis.
Also there is more to clutch plates than friction material wear. Only by disassembly will you be able to sort the matter.

 

[Upt' North]

Further to the above, Dave Silvers as got the parts for the slave cylinder for about 10e.
Hope this helps.

 

[st1300doug]

YEP....this is all true. Sounds like 10-20% of the clutch is NOT disengaging. My two-cents .....

If you put it on the centre stand so the rear wheel is off the ground, start it up and put it in first gear, when the clutch is fully in (so should be disengaged) does the rear wheel spin like it's still being driven? If it does spin, can you stop it rotating with carefully placed foot - or is the force rotating it more than your foot can resist? If this is the case, then my guess is the clutch really isn't fully disengaging when you pull it in. Another bleed may be simplest option, maybe followed by an oil change (or even two changes to really flush out the wet clutch).

 

[MaxPete]

Whitesparrow - if you do decide to replace the clutch slave cylinder (CSC) here are some points to consider:

1) the layout of the CSC on the ST1300 is COMPLETELY different from that on the ST1100. The 1100 CSC is mounted on the front of the clutch cover (basically right behind the front wheel of the bike) and is very easy to access/change etc.

Conversely, the CSC on the 1300 is mounted on the REAR engine case and it is a b!tch to get at. I am doing this job right now and basically, you have to lay the bike down on its side (like a dead horse) - OR - you have to remove the engine from the frame. (!!!)

So - you don't want (in my view) to mess around rebuilding the clutch slave cylinder. You want a new, genuine, cannot-fail Honda part - because you don't want to do this job twice. I. Just priced all of this stuff and in Canada (not known for low costs.....) all of the parts to rebuild the CSC cost around $55.00 while a whole new one cost $75.00. Easy choice in my view.

2) IMO - the clutch now slipping but still not working correctly could be a number of things: clutch springs, clutch plates glazed, clutch space cylinder....etc. Given that it is a police bike, i would simply do it all and be done with it.

Pete

 

[Byron]

It is a retired police bike with 84K on the clock, . . .

This is the problem, you have NO CLUTCH left in the bike and it needs a new one. Police are terrible on clutches and they probably retired the bike instead of replacing the clutch.