De Linking ST 1300 brakes Question

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Hello Folks, my ST has a Hannigan Super Sport sidecar attached, which has a brake disc plumbed into the rear brake circuit,and have been wondering if anyone here has experimenting with making the ST 1300 braking system where the lever actuates just the 2 front calipers,and the pedal, only the rear? It may not be possible with the ST's complex "mixed" braking system, but with Guzzis, I know some folks have done it. My bike is a non abs version.
What are the groups thoughts?
Rick Duarte.
 

Shawn K

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You'll find a number of threads on this very topic if you use the Search function or browse through the tech forum.

Short answer: There's no easy solution.
 
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I did this very thing on my VFR800 (as part of an overall suspension and brake change). The only real consideration is making sure that the ratio of master cylinder area: total slave piston area remains "reasonable" so you don't dramatically change the brake feel/firmness.

At the front the standard system activates just the outer 4 pistons (the link to the rear brake uses SMC rotation not front master pressure) so if you link in the centre front pistons as well, the slave area will increase. That changes the ratio and increases the hydraulic advantage of the master over the calipers, increases the lever travel a bit and makes for a grabbier brake. In the case of the ST the ratio of slave:master goes from 15.4 to 21.7 if you add in the front centre pistons, which sounds like it would be fairly dramatic. The answer is swapping the standard master for a large diameter one to restore the ratio back to a more reasonable level. Something close to 15mm would be mathematically ideal but as far as I know the standard Honda sizes are 14mm (e.g. VFR800 02-12), 15.87mm (e.g. CBR600F4).

The ST's rear brake also activates the two front centre pistons stock, so the delinking (losing the front two pistons, adding the two rear outer pistons) would leave the ratios unchanged but you have the sidecar brake to consider in there as well.

I've seen photos of the centre pistons in these 3-piston calipers being linked to the outer pistons by drilling through the internal walls (via the banjo bolt hole) and then capping off the centre banjo hole. Much easier and neater than adding an extra external hose. When I delinked the rear of my VFR I left the standard brake hoses connected at the calliper, and joined both hoses at the master using a double banjo bolt.
 
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There is one easy solution you will find when you look. A member blocked off the linking lines at the calipers and did some drilling. Read the original post for details. I have spoken with him and he says the stopping power is good. However, there is substantial lever travel. If you can find a bolt-on master cylinder with a larger bore, that problem would go away. I imagine (but do not yet know) that any honda master cylinder off a bike with dual front disk brakes with three pot calipers would work. Looking around at replacement master cylinders, there are several universal nissin replacement units with various piston bores. If someone measured theirs, I think the lever travel issue would be resolved pretty quick.

Dimecitycycles.com has an excellent selection of master cylinders with specifications.
 

sirbike

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Here is my information.

—- as I get questions I am adding, editing and clarifying this post to keep the information in one place—-

This is my response to another thread.
I am posting here as its own subject for easier forum search purposes as this is the most definitive information on the subject that I have seen to date. Each system has advantages.
I’ll also add here that my opening line, if I re-edited the post would be, “I delinked to simplify the system”

I delinked my VFR to reduce potential problems, and because I had some braided lines laying around that happened to fit.
So when I bought the 2006 ST1300 I considered the idea until another 2006 ST1300 went up for sale as a result of damages caused by a smc failure. Then I thought let’s simplify this. Anyway I rode 9,000 miles linked. (Previously rode 15,000 ST1100ABS II)
I delinked the 06 this winter.
Front master cylinder connects to outer front pistons.
Rear mc operates three pistons in rear caliper, with new oil passage drilled from middle piston to passage between outer pistons.
Edit, Capped the brake line port to the rear caliper middle piston with appropriate size bolt and crush washer.
Capped the front middle pistons and drilled a vent hole through the bleeder to the outside to ensure no pressure build up from heat in middle piston. End edit.
Essentially the known formula for the Blackbird.
What I find riding is that
  1. the rear wheel takes more effort to lock up which I happen to appreciate.
  2. I use the rear brake lever more.
  3. The front brake lever by itself does not slow the bike down as quickly, presumably because the bike brake system is not activating the rear brake and subsequently the front inner pistons.
3a. Using the front and rear levers together stop the bike just as fast as linked.
  1. The front wheel can be locked up more or less the same as on similar bikes that I’ve owned like ST1100 or Concours 1000
  2. I kinda miss linked brakes for the last few feet of braking prior to a stop on pavement because I like the landing gear down on both sides while still having the advantage of front and rear brakes applied.
  3. I feel safer delinked on gravel coming to a stop where I make a point of using more rear brake bias.
I will test adding in one middle front piston hoping to get a lighter effort.
My ST1300 works fine with 4 but I am curious how 5 would feel.
Just my opinion, but I overcame the fear of delinking when I thought about the 70,000 miles I rode on standard ST1100s with no problems and a thorough study of the ST 1300 system and its comparison to the ST1100, ST1100ABSII, Blackbird and VFR.
Post note.
Remember, I did this to simplify things.
I had the 03 abs just about ready to ride last night when guess what?
The proportional control valve leaks out. Geez! Good thing I delinked the 06 and had a spare valve.
This is a thread where everyone is right.
So let’s keep the peace and saves the proxy wars for the oil thread.

Edit 6/8/20
I finally tied in a fifth piston by drilling a hole to intercept the passage between the outer pistons on one caliper and ran into the same problem that in had in a similar project with my VFR800. After a lot of head pounding it occurred to me that there could be air under the block off bolt that I used.
I cracked that bolt and sure enough a small amount of air came out. There was just enough air to make the lever just soft enough to confuse whether it was a master cylinder to slave cylinder ratio thing or air in the system. I should have stuck to the logic that the lever would move more until the pads hit. Beyond that, within reason, the lever has hit an unmoving wall regardless of ratios.
I had linked the three rear pistons by drilling internally. That brake felt OK. I cracked the bolt while a friend pumped the pedal. Now the rear brake feels excellent.
With 5 pistons working up front the lever travels a little further until the pads contact. Beyond that the lever feel is correct.
I can lay down rubber with two fingers. Not too easily, just right for me to be a definite two finger operation like my linked bike got me spoiled to.
 

mello dude

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I did it on my VFR wth different forks and calipers, with appropriate master cylinder to match, plus kept the stock rear caliper, and also changed the master cylinder. The SMC and linking hydraulics went in the trash. Simple is beautiful.

I would love to try the same job on the 1300.
 
Last edited:

jfheath

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Which rear circuit is your sidecar brake plumbed into ? There are two separate circuits, both operated by the rear brake master cylinder.
One that acivates the rear centre piston (which is directly operated by the brake pedal)
The other is fed fluid from the rear master cylinder, but the brakes are applied by the Secondary Master Cylinder on the front fork leg when the brakes are applied.

In the grage, the brake pedal pumps fluid into both circuits, but not when moving. It is the SMC that applies the rear outer pistons. This circuit has a pressure relief mechanism which helps to prevent the rear wheel locking up if the SMC is applying too much pressure.

The plumbing for the ABS version is the same as it is for the non-ABS version. (Apart from the ABS modulator of course).

I am curious to know why you think that isolating the circuits is necessary. Is the sidecar misbehaving ?
 
OP
OP
bigbikerrick
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05 ST 1300 hack'd
Which rear circuit is your sidecar brake plumbed into ? There are two separate circuits, both operated by the rear brake master cylinder.
One that acivates the rear centre piston (which is directly operated by the brake pedal)
The other is fed fluid from the rear master cylinder, but the brakes are applied by the Secondary Master Cylinder on the front fork leg when the brakes are applied.

In the grage, the brake pedal pumps fluid into both circuits, but not when moving. It is the SMC that applies the rear outer pistons. This circuit has a pressure relief mechanism which helps to prevent the rear wheel locking up if the SMC is applying too much pressure.

The plumbing for the ABS version is the same as it is for the non-ABS version. (Apart from the ABS modulator of course).

I am curious to know why you think that isolating the circuits is necessary. Is the sidecar misbehaving ?
Thank you for the reply ,Mr. Heath. I need to re check exactly where the installer plumbed the sidecar brake line to. When I apply only the rear brake pedal, the rig pulls to the right, I can tell the sidecar wheel is braking pretty significantly. When I apply only the front brake lever, the rig pulls to the left. On previous rigs I have had, braking always caused a left pull, no matter if the front brake, or rear brake was used.
if I use both brakes equally, It stops straight, though, which is a good thing. I think the case here is that this Hannigan sidecar has a pretty powerful brembo brake system. quite a bit "stronger" than what I am used to.
I think I need to dig into it,and see where they hooked up the brake line, is the first thing.
Thanks
Rick.
 
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