F1 code 25

[HugoF]

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[STooRay]

Hello Hugo, and welcome to the forum!
Check this link

ECM FAILURE POLL AND DISCUSSION | ST1300 Related

2004 non-police, I chose both replace (because I did) and live with it (after the second one did the same as the first...); staying below 4K is working for me (I know, against the advice of some well respected members!) 1 Sep 23 update: Night before last, mistakenly exceeded the 4K rpm limit...

www.st-owners.com

You will probably be somewhat bewildered….
On my 2003, the light now is intermittent. No new ecm available, so I just ride like normal, no problems so far.
Good luck!
Stu

 

[Mellow]

You don't have much choice, you can try to determine if it's NOT the ECU.. that's the first thing to try in case you're lucky and it isn't a failed ECU.. However, many times it is.

Sure, you can ride it, you don't have much of a choice but you can try to look for a used one but you don't know if that is a bad one someone is dumping on the market.. that's a crap shoot and just the way it is. Some will say the bike will explode lol.. not true, is it a good thing? no, the ECU is getting and sending incorrect information and the bike isn't running as designed but again, until you can fix or source an ECU you can either ride it or let it sit which really sux.

The2008 and newer ST1300s have a different ECU but require a different wire harness and that starts to get complicated... I'm not aware of anyone that's spliced in a newer one into an older bike...

Once in a while someone posts one up for sale here but that gets jumped on quickly.

 

[Buckeyechris]

Welcome Hugo, and I am sorry to hear about your situation.

During your test ride, do you recall whether you rode at sustained RPMs above 4,000? If not, the FI light might not have come on. Usually, a knock sensor code of 25 or 26 is a sign that the PGM-FI unit has gone bad, but not always. I hate to disparage someone I do not know, but this seller may have knowingly failed to disclose this problem. When my ECM went bad, the unit would reset each time I turned off the ignition. If the code has been stored in the ECM (i.e., the FI light flashes without the engine running), then it could mean that something else is causing the problem.

In some cases, owners have found the wiring from the knock sensor to the ECM had shorted, and in others, the ECM threw codes because of low battery voltage. There are about a half-dozen diagnostics you can do to verify whether you have an ECM failure. However, if the FI light comes on when you maintain sustained RPM's above 4,000 for ten or more seconds, then it's likely you have a bad ECM. In my case, I had three options: keep riding it as is, replace the ECM, or part it out. However, replacement ECMs are difficult to find because Honda has discontinued their production for model years 2003-2007.

Whether the bike is safe to ride with a bad ECM has been the subject of much discussion on this forum. Two of the most knowledgeable members, @Igofar and @aniwack , do not agree on this matter. Some owners have been riding their STs with bad ECMs for years and claim not to notice any problems other than a significant drop in fuel mileage. Other owners have reported that the bike runs hotter than usual, which has resulted in melted wiring and fairings. As for myself, I found a seller in Japan that had a NOS ECM for the US Police STs that will work on my '05 ST13 and had it imported to the States. Because some of the European models have HISS, I cannot say whether this is an option for your Pan.

I sincerely hope your problem is not a faulty ECM. My failure happened at around 92,000 miles (140,000 Km), but I have seen reports where failures have occurred with fewer miles (Kms) like your bike. Why does this problem happen? No one is quite certain. Nevertheless, the ST is not the only Honda model to experience ECM failures. Hopefully, you can find a solution.

Chris

 

[Andrew Shadow]

Because some of the European models have HISS, I cannot say whether this is an option for your Pan.

I know that the ECM and the HISS signal from the original key chip must go together. You can not program an ECM to work with a different key chip signal. Once the marriage between an ECM and a key chip signal takes place there is no divorcing the two, that ECM will only work with the signal from that key chip for the rest of its life.

North American ST1300's do not have the HISS system, so I know very little about the system. I do not know if the HISS module is part of the ECM or separate, so I do not know if installing a non-HISS ECM will simply convert the motorcycle to a non-HISS motorcycle or if it still will not start because it still needs to receive a signal from an HISS key chip.

If replacing an HISS ECM with a non-HISS ECM will allow the motorcycle to run without the need for an HISS key chip, this might open up a few more options for people looking for used ECM's.

Maybe John (@jfheath) knows.

 

[jfheath]

That is an interesting thought @Andrew Shadow - But no, I don't know.

The HISS system needs to have a key that works with the ECU. It doesn't need to be the original - the original key can be used to program other keys. The other keys have to have been previously programmed with this bike, or they must be brand new, never been programmed before. Once programmed, anny key that works can be used to program other keys to the ECU. So yes, they are tied to the bike. When you program one key, the other keys will not work, so you have to reprogram all of them at the same time.

The HISS system is controlled by the ECM - it effectively turns on or off circuits which are needed to be turned on in order for the system to work.
One of these (for example) is the fuel pump circuit. If a recognised HISS key is not present in or near the ignition antenna - the cup shape around the key slot, then the ECM doesn't turn on the appropriate circuits. In the fuel pump circuit, this is turned off by not completeing the circuit to earth for the relay.

So that might lead you to believe that completing all of the relevant circuits would by-pass the HISS system ?

Well - I suppose it might, but there will be times when the fuel pump circuit does not need to be pumping fuel. Like - if you turn the ignition on and off a few times, it has already pumped fuel for a couple of seconds, a few times, and it doesn't need any more. So that might suggest that there is a sensor of some sort which also sends a signal. You wouldn't want the system to be pumping fuel when the system detects that it doesn't need it.

I very much doubt that the connector on the wiring harness for the HISS model is the same as the connector on the non HISS model. That would be too easy.

I have heard tell that a solution to this is available by people that know about such things - and that ECMs can be made to work with a set of keys that are not linked to the ECM. I read it years ago, and wouldn't know where to find it - but it may well have been on these forum pages. You end up with keys that cannot be reprogrammed - or something like that. Sorry - its a bit vague. Memory fades with time apparently.

Found it. How to get a new hiss key when you have lost the last one | ST1300 Related | ST-Owners.com

 

[RobbieAG]

I recently had the FI light code come on with code 26 after 8 years of ownership on my 2005. I'll be taking the bike apart this winter to diagnose the problem, hoping it's something other than the ECM. If yours turns out to be the ECM, you may have an easier time locating a used one since you're in Europe and the bike is much more prevalent over there than in the US.

 

[Gus1300]

I'll be taking the bike apart this winter to diagnose the problem.

Doesn't require taking the bike too much apart; known issue. And doesn't require a new ECM if you can't find one. Keep the light off, stay below 4K RPM, and ride on.

Yes, I'm one of 'those' at 135k miles...and still going.

 

[Igofar]

Doesn't require taking the bike too much apart; known issue. And doesn't require a new ECM if you can't find one. Keep the light off, stay below 4K RPM, and ride on.

Yes, I'm one of 'those' at 135k miles...and still going.

And I wonder how much heat damage I’d find on your bike…

 

[MidLife]

And I wonder how much heat damage I’d find on your bike…

So.......with no replacement ECU to be had anywhere, what does the Master Whisperer recommend the Coded should do?

 

[Igofar]

They are still out there, you just need to know where to look, and if you want a new one, be willing to pay for one at retail price.
A while back someone posted auction bikes from a police department near sierra vista arizona that was selling running ST’s on pallets for around $150-$300 dollars.
Police ST’s ECU will work on civilian ST’s in the early models.
There are still some new ones available in Japan also.

 

[RobbieAG]

Doesn't require taking the bike too much apart; known issue. And doesn't require a new ECM if you can't find one. Keep the light off, stay below 4K RPM, and ride on.

Yes, I'm one of 'those' at 135k miles...and still going.

I'm afraid that won't work for my style of riding. All of the fun is over 4k rpm

 

[rdmnt2002]

Larry, I’m curious….why does the 25 code result in more engine heat?

 

[Buckeyechris]

Larry, I’m curious….why does the 25 code result in more engine heat?

@rdmnt2002 ,

Larry can probably provide more insight, but the knock sensor fault (code 25/26) changes the fueling of the bike because the ECM thinks the engine is experiencing pre-ignition. For some reason only Honda may know, the fuel mixture becomes more lean, which usually causes an engine to run hotter. What I think is odd is that a lean mixture is typically why an engine experiences pre-ignition or knocks.

I've not measured it, but there is a precipitous decrease in power when the knock sensor condition triggers the FI light. It's probably an attempt by Honda to prevent further damage to the engine.

 

[Larry Fine]

I was under the impression that the engine runs richer when that happens.

 

[RobbieAG]

@rdmnt2002 ,
I've not measured it, but there is a precipitous decrease in power when the knock sensor condition triggers the FI light. It's probably an attempt by Honda to prevent further damage to the engine.

I didn't notice much if any decrease in power when the light comes on, but I did notice more heat than usual. The fact that the mpgs go down seems to indicate it's running richer, not leaner.

 

[Igofar]

Since the ECU is damaged, it may not know what it is doing, it could fluctuate from lean to rich and all over the place.
The ones that I’ve had come through have all been dangerously lean.
As stated in a prior comment, there is such a small percentage of ECU failures, compared to how many bikes are on the road, it’s my belief that the ones that fail are usually on bikes that have a lot of add on electrical stuff, or bikes that have been ridden more than serviced, and are neglected.
I have not seen a single ECU failure on a bone stock, well maintained bike yet.
And I’ve seen more high mileage bikes in the 100-200k mile range still running perfectly.
It’s an electrical part like a light bulb. Nobody will now when it will burn out.
As far as the mpg going down, that could be a frozen t-stat from lack of service.

 

[MidLife]

@rdmnt2002 ,

.....the ECM thinks the engine is experiencing pre-ignition.....

I've not measured it, but there is a precipitous decrease in power when the knock sensor condition triggers the FI light. It's probably an attempt by Honda to prevent further damage to the engine.

One often used method to prevent the pre-ignition detonation you mention is to pull the timing back, which can result in less power.

 

[MidLife]

Since the ECU is damaged, it may not know what it is doing, it could fluctuate from lean to rich and all over the place.
The ones that I’ve had come through have all been dangerously lean.

So, all of these had to have the ECU replaced to get going again?

 

[rdmnt2002]

@rdmnt2002 ,

Larry can probably provide more insight, but the knock sensor fault (code 25/26) changes the fueling of the bike because the ECM thinks the engine is experiencing pre-ignition. For some reason only Honda may know, the fuel mixture becomes more lean, which usually causes an engine to run hotter. What I think is odd is that a lean mixture is typically why an engine experiences pre-ignition or knocks.

I've not measured it, but there is a precipitous decrease in power when the knock sensor condition triggers the FI light. It's probably an attempt by Honda to prevent further damage to the engine.

Ah…ok. Thank you for taking the time to answer.