Race bike engine failure is rare today. On my bike I have all the evidence I need. 18 year old 68,222 nothing but Honda GN4 10W 40. When you take the oil cap off valve cams look new. Honda Parts one vaccum fuel valve, one headlight bulb. 2 sets of brake pads, 3 sets of tires not including the originals. 3 air filters and 2 fuel filters a fan switch. All replaced with Honda OEM parts. No its no exaggeration when this is all it has taken me to ride 68,222 blissful miles. Could I have done it with non original parts maybe? But as I posted this before Honda had already done the dirty work so I trust mother Honda more than the Chong Don Pon Chinese parts. YMMV.
Final Drive Hypoid Gear Oil
- Thread starter SMSW
- Start date
Red one - while your loyalty to Honda products - even those labelled HONDA, but made by some other company - is admirable, you are wearing blinders on this oil issue.
I have used a full synthetic gear oil (Castrol) in my ST1100 for over 20 years, as have many, many other 1100 and 1300 owners here and a full synthetic engine oil ( Belray and Amsoil ) for just as long. Zero issues.
You will never likely have a problem sticking with your Honda dino lubes, doing recommended change intervals, so you can consider yourself having done the right thing, in that sense. Probably paid a lot more for those HONDA products over the years too, but that is your choice.
However, one seemingly insignificant item on our bikes was what convinced me very early on that synthetics ARE superior to dino in wear protection - that little magnet inside the final drive drain bolt.
After two initial hypoid changes all those years ago, using Castrol dino, I noted the space where the magnet sits was thickly filled with the extremely fine metal particles that the gears had shed while working against each other. I switched to the Castrol synthetic hypoid and, upon inspection at the next oil change, that magnet was virtually clean and has remained so ever since. 'Proof in the pudding' of the increased wear protection, so to speak, for me.
Now, whether it would be of any benefit for you to switch to synthetics at this late date, having stuck with the HONDA dino all these 20+ years, is debatable. The wear patterns have been well established already, but for you to be arguing, basically, that dino, especially HONDA dino, is superior to any synthetic is just a load of rubbish.
I have used a full synthetic gear oil (Castrol) in my ST1100 for over 20 years, as have many, many other 1100 and 1300 owners here and a full synthetic engine oil ( Belray and Amsoil ) for just as long. Zero issues.
You will never likely have a problem sticking with your Honda dino lubes, doing recommended change intervals, so you can consider yourself having done the right thing, in that sense. Probably paid a lot more for those HONDA products over the years too, but that is your choice.
However, one seemingly insignificant item on our bikes was what convinced me very early on that synthetics ARE superior to dino in wear protection - that little magnet inside the final drive drain bolt.
After two initial hypoid changes all those years ago, using Castrol dino, I noted the space where the magnet sits was thickly filled with the extremely fine metal particles that the gears had shed while working against each other. I switched to the Castrol synthetic hypoid and, upon inspection at the next oil change, that magnet was virtually clean and has remained so ever since. 'Proof in the pudding' of the increased wear protection, so to speak, for me.
Now, whether it would be of any benefit for you to switch to synthetics at this late date, having stuck with the HONDA dino all these 20+ years, is debatable. The wear patterns have been well established already, but for you to be arguing, basically, that dino, especially HONDA dino, is superior to any synthetic is just a load of rubbish.
No synethic oil and lubes are better than regular dino oil. Where I disagree is how much better? I have a Toyota Corolla with 190,345 miles on it. Never used anything but 5W30 yellow bottle Pennzoil dino oil. This car runs like new. Inside the oil fuel hole there are no deposits. Car burns no oil. Just like my ST1100 no oil problems clean as a whistle. Now if I was using full synthetic my results would probably near the same. Todays Dino oil is not like it was 20,10, even 5 years ago. Even dino oil has the same additive package as the syntectics. You may or not know my wife bought a new Mazda CX 5 that needs synethic 0w 20 to keep the warranty so she lets the dealer change it at 75 dollars a pop. To my thinking i'm saying a ton.
Why not change it for her and save about half that cost by buying your own 0W-20 and filter? Use a Mazda filter though and keep oil and filter purchase receipts to protect her warranty. Also, that synthetic will last at least twice as long as a regular dino, so don't let the dealer tell you it needs changing every 5,000 miles. If she is driving 10,000 - 12,000 miles a year or less, changing once a year would be sufficient.
Interestingly, Amsoil states that their top o' the line synthetic car oil is good for 25,000 miles, or one year. Not that I would leave mine that long, mileage wise, but since I only do about 6,000 miles a year in the car, it gets done once a year.
Interestingly, Amsoil states that their top o' the line synthetic car oil is good for 25,000 miles, or one year. Not that I would leave mine that long, mileage wise, but since I only do about 6,000 miles a year in the car, it gets done once a year.
Bush, she is not going to let me touch her baby! She always takes her SUV's to the dealer her thinking is if I make a mistake its going to cost us. If the dealer does it its on their dime. This dealer is a scam too because they put 6K change interval sticker on her car. I tell want to tell her 7.5K but that is a direct injection engine and the oil gets dirty quick so 6K it is.
From my understanding, the primary benefit of synthetic is the similar nature of the base stock. Dino oil is distilled in a fractionating process which leaves a range of petrochemical species in varied percentages, whereas the synthetic is built from targeted chemical reactions, resulting in a much more selective product.
The selling point in the oilfield (when I was associated with it) was just needing to send in samples monitoring the health and wear contents (similar to what Blackstone Labs does), and be diligent with filter changes.
For our purposes, I get longer change intervals with less damage to the base stock than with the standard oils. Having said that, the oil still builds up with contaminants, worn out shear modifiers and the like, no matter which gets used.
st11ray
2006 ST1300
Honda doesn't make their own oil so your Pro Honda GN4 is probably private label Shell ,Mobil, etc. And it's probably been several different manufacturers over the years. I'm sure Honda puts out bids for their lubricants.
P.S.- Like Red One, I too have put 80k on a 1100 and 90k on a 1300 with absolutely no engine oil (Mobil 1 4T & Rotella T6) and Mobil1 75W90 final drive failures whatsoever.
P.S.- Like Red One, I too have put 80k on a 1100 and 90k on a 1300 with absolutely no engine oil (Mobil 1 4T & Rotella T6) and Mobil1 75W90 final drive failures whatsoever.
wjbertrand
Ventura Highway
I think race bikes use whatever oil the race team can get sponsorship from. Witness racing at the highest level - MotoGP. Honda’s factory team is sponsored by Repsol. That’s probably what oil the team uses.
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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Oh, she of little faith in you! What could you possibly screw up with an oil change??
The purpose of oil is to lubricate moving parts (well, actually, to keep moving pieces of metal apart, with a thin film of oil separating say, a shaft from the bearing). Said lubrication cuts down on wear. Many years ago Consumer Reports did a study of NYC Yellow Cabs and followed them for some (6?) months and tore down the engines for measurement afterward. Their conclusions were that ANY brand name oil meeting industry standards was fine in your car. By extension (yes, I'm going out on a limb) any brand name oil meeting industry standards for motorcycles will probably do a fine job of lubricating your bike - in any case I suspect if you use an 'unapproved oil' that any oil related damage will not show up for many many thousands of miles, if there is any at all.
Many race engines are torn down and rebuilt after each race, and the objectives are different than street bikes. If the engine will be taken apart after a 500 mile race, and a thinner oil gives the tuner a fraction of a hp more, I'd wager that he will use that oil.
All this is to say that oil selection is one of our lesser worries. A bigger one might be how to keep the bike from T-boning a car that suddenly pulls out of a driveway in front of us.
Many race engines are torn down and rebuilt after each race, and the objectives are different than street bikes. If the engine will be taken apart after a 500 mile race, and a thinner oil gives the tuner a fraction of a hp more, I'd wager that he will use that oil.
All this is to say that oil selection is one of our lesser worries. A bigger one might be how to keep the bike from T-boning a car that suddenly pulls out of a driveway in front of us.
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Its also possible that the early years is when the gears mesh, bed into each other, etc. and cause more particles to be attracted to the magnet, and may naturally diminish over time as the gears wear into each other. A true test would be to put the dino back in on the next change and see if the fine particle accumulation gets higher again.
Kevcules
Site Supporter
You can still change your newly acquired vehicles oil at home without voiding the warranty if you buy oil from the dealer so they have a record of it. (all the ones I've dealt with did) Synthetic oil is superior without a doubt, but is it necessary? That's a personal choice.
I also know guys who only use dino oil and change it when ever they feel like it. Never seem to have issues and get long life from their hondas or toyotas. I think today's engines are going to fail on how they are built. The oil doesn't make or break them unless the fluid change frequency is insane.
I like synthetic oils because I can go with with longer drain intervals and have better protection on start up in extreme cold weather and will have better protection at higher temps in case of overheating.
I also know guys who only use dino oil and change it when ever they feel like it. Never seem to have issues and get long life from their hondas or toyotas. I think today's engines are going to fail on how they are built. The oil doesn't make or break them unless the fluid change frequency is insane.
I like synthetic oils because I can go with with longer drain intervals and have better protection on start up in extreme cold weather and will have better protection at higher temps in case of overheating.
commercial and big rigs all pretty much the same oil , but there are some straight weight 140
bdalameda
PaleoCyclist
Having been involved on racing teams over the years I can tell you for certain that a sponsored team does not necessarily use the products that they advertise. Most teams use the product that works best for them regardless of brand. I have even seen oil replaced in the sponsor brand product bottles in order to represent that they use the product they are advertising but actually are using what works for them.
As to oil - synthetic vs. petroleum - so many factors about this one could argue about it forever. There are several grades of synthetics as well as petroleum oils and the question of which is better become more complex. What is important is that oil gets changed before acids etc. form in the oil from condensation etc. How one uses their bike is critical as well. Many short rides down to the corner market are hard on lubricants as the oil does not heat up enough to evaporate off the condensate that forms and the moisture breaks down into acids in the crankcase. Any oil that is used if fully heated up (15+ minutes of running) will last longer and keep your engine in better shape. Synthetics typically have a higher TBN number so this helps prevent acids from forming in the oil - diesel rated oils usually have higher TBN ratings as well. Petroleum is fine too if changed frequently enough to prevent acid buildup. Typically synthetic oils, depending on the what group rating is, are less prone to shearing down than are petroleum but again the engine type is important. Many motorcycle engines have the gearbox lubricated with the same oil as the engine so shearing the oil down is more prevalent than a typical car engine that the oil only lubricates the engine. I like to use synthetic oils in motorcycle engines that have common lubrication to the engine and gearbox. Most engines don't actually wear out as much as plug up from carbon buildup in the ring lands(oil burning), sludging up the engine and hardening seals etc.from oil acids. Keeping an engine clean from deposits and sludge formation is the key to long engine life. Synthetic oils are more immune to causing this type of problem but any oil that is not changed when it is required can cause problems. The lines do blur when one looks at the oil additive packages used and many petroleum oils that are very close if not identical to some oils branded as synthetic. Group IV or Group V synthetics are in a category by themselves however from a cleanliness and shear stability standpoint. Most Group IV or V synthetic oils are diester or polyol ester base stocks that are not made with any petroleum bases that are used in some oils branded synthetic. These groups of oils act like a solvent to clean deposits from pistons and rings and will keep an engine spotless inside. Typical Group IV or V oils cost 10.00 to 15.00 per quart however. (ie: Red Line or Motul)
So I guess the oil questions will continue on and everyone has their opinions - most oils today are fine in the ST Hondas as the engines are so understressed that they run forever anyway.
As to oil - synthetic vs. petroleum - so many factors about this one could argue about it forever. There are several grades of synthetics as well as petroleum oils and the question of which is better become more complex. What is important is that oil gets changed before acids etc. form in the oil from condensation etc. How one uses their bike is critical as well. Many short rides down to the corner market are hard on lubricants as the oil does not heat up enough to evaporate off the condensate that forms and the moisture breaks down into acids in the crankcase. Any oil that is used if fully heated up (15+ minutes of running) will last longer and keep your engine in better shape. Synthetics typically have a higher TBN number so this helps prevent acids from forming in the oil - diesel rated oils usually have higher TBN ratings as well. Petroleum is fine too if changed frequently enough to prevent acid buildup. Typically synthetic oils, depending on the what group rating is, are less prone to shearing down than are petroleum but again the engine type is important. Many motorcycle engines have the gearbox lubricated with the same oil as the engine so shearing the oil down is more prevalent than a typical car engine that the oil only lubricates the engine. I like to use synthetic oils in motorcycle engines that have common lubrication to the engine and gearbox. Most engines don't actually wear out as much as plug up from carbon buildup in the ring lands(oil burning), sludging up the engine and hardening seals etc.from oil acids. Keeping an engine clean from deposits and sludge formation is the key to long engine life. Synthetic oils are more immune to causing this type of problem but any oil that is not changed when it is required can cause problems. The lines do blur when one looks at the oil additive packages used and many petroleum oils that are very close if not identical to some oils branded as synthetic. Group IV or Group V synthetics are in a category by themselves however from a cleanliness and shear stability standpoint. Most Group IV or V synthetic oils are diester or polyol ester base stocks that are not made with any petroleum bases that are used in some oils branded synthetic. These groups of oils act like a solvent to clean deposits from pistons and rings and will keep an engine spotless inside. Typical Group IV or V oils cost 10.00 to 15.00 per quart however. (ie: Red Line or Motul)
So I guess the oil questions will continue on and everyone has their opinions - most oils today are fine in the ST Hondas as the engines are so understressed that they run forever anyway.