Final Drive Issues

[rwthomas1]

Hello all,
Well, it's that time of the year for new sneakers on the 1100. When I removed the rear wheel I was greeted with nothing but dry dust from the drive splines. Hmmm, it's only been @10K, shouldn't be bone dry. Used new o-rings and the preferred Loctite 8012 paste. Looked like metal flakes too. Unfortunately there is more wear to the drive splines than last time as well.

After cleaning up the high points and deburring the wheel flange, I moved to the drive side on the swingarm. While scraping out all the buildup, I realized that the area inside of the splined, deep inside was packed with old, very hard paste. Since this is only my third set of tires on this bike I can only assume that this is residual from over the life of the machine. I never noticed before because I just cleaned the spline area and moved on. But there was at least an 1/8"+ packed in there. I dug it all out and cleaned it out with carb cleaner.

So now I have some shouldering on the drive side and more on the wheel flange. Probably hard to tell in the pic but maybe 10-15% of the total tooth width on the wheel flange splines. Now that everything is clean, when I insert the wheel flange into the drive splines, there is maybe a 1/16" of play at the drive flange pins rocking it gently forward and back. Seems like a lot. But I've never seen a spec on acceptable wear, and I've sure seen worse in pics.

So the question is:
1, Run it as is, maybe check it halfway through season.
2. Wheel flange available used, with much less wear. Will it play well with used drive splines? No idea.
3. Wheel flange available new, again, will that play well with used drive splines?

The wheel flange seems softer than the drive splines, which makes sense if Honda considered it a wear part? Drives are no longer available new, but plenty of used if I need one. Additionally not entirely happy with the Loctite 8012. I have some TS70 moly and that's what is going in this time.

RT

 

[SMSW]

Once the wear begins, you have increased space between the mating splines, and wear will continue at an accelerated rate. Yes, you can slow this wear somewhat with lubricant (moly paste) but with less surface area to spread the load, the wear on remaining splines will continue. Honda designed the splines with a certain total load area that distributes the load, and when properly lubricated, would wear at an acceptably slow rate.

I'd start looking ASAP for used parts in good condition. Final drives (for my 1300) were available some years back, for what I thought was a reasonable $100. I have no idea about 1100's parts. Both mating parts have to be replaced or you will destroy the good part by running it with the worn piece.

 

[Uncle Phil]

Get the replacement parts and set them aside.
Then lube it with moly and ride it like you stole it.
You may be surprised just how long what you have lasts.

 

[Larry Fine]

Get the replacement parts and set them aside.
Then lube it with moly and ride it like you stole it.
You may be surprised just how long what you have lasts.

Right. Buying the replacement parts scares the old ones into behaving better.

 

[rwthomas1]

Thanks gents. Picked up the wheels with new tires today. Since everything is cleaned out I have nothing to lose by reassembling and running what I have. I see quite a few used parts available, so not particularly worried. I will hold out for nice low mileage stuff. Appreciate the input. RT

 

[red one]

Before the height of the riding season i have to replace my tires. Thinking Honda 77 moly paste. I checked amazon and it gets good results by some of the ST1100/1300 people. I can get a small tube enough to do enough rear wheel changes.

 

[rwthomas1]

Before the height of the riding season i have to replace my tires. Thinking Honda 77 moly paste. I checked amazon and it gets good results by some of the ST1100/1300 people. I can get a small tube enough to do enough rear wheel changes.

There has been much discussion on this. W0QNX has had good results with TS70 paste from tsmoly.com, he's got more miles than just about anyone. The Loctite 8012 is one of the trusted products. However I just had a bad experience with it. Could it be the packed in old product that did it? I dunno. There was some mention of the paste needing to be either an NLGI #1 or #2. Apparently the 8012 isn't the right NLGI#? Apparently the TS70 is? I have no idea, this all becomes quite esoteric when I just want to ride. And now I see wear that is, to me, unexplained, unexpected, and disappointing. TS70 is what I'm trying this time. The Honda 77, IIRC is not recommended anymore because the formulation changed? Anyway, do some reading.

RT

 

[Andrew Shadow]

However I just had a bad experience with it.

I am beginning to believe that the Loctite 8012 is not as good for this application as it has been purported to be, and that it may not be up to the task over long duration.

 

[Larry Fine]

I am beginning to believe that the Loctite 8012 is not as good for this application as it has been purported to be, and that it may not be up to the task over long duration.

There is a better Loctite product, but it's not sold in the US, only Europe.

 

[Upt' North]

I can't tell much from the pictures but if you're saying there's discernable movement between the two splined areas then that's obviously not good.
Your plan is a good one and if there is more wear on the spider I would change that ASAP. I wouldn't be concerned about changing just the one part.
In short, find a good one, lube it (not going there) and forget it.
Upt.

 

[W0QNX]

Your splines do look like they have maybe 15 to 20% of wear. But as said they will last a lot of miles if you get a lot of lube in there and keep it in there. Good on the TS70 moly, it works as good as can be had I think. Pack a lot in there and use 3 new orings at each lube. The Orings do create a seal to keep the lube in place in all directions. They are cheap compared to new parts. The 1100 is not as good of a design as the 1300 so you won't make the distance my 1300 delivered.

One thing I've never agreed with is many will say the inner splines and outer spline should or must be bought and kept as a matched set. It is best if they are in good to new condition but unless the splines are marked somehow every time you take it apart and put it back together you probably rotated the spline mesh point slightly. Therefore they all should be close enough to use since the tooth mesh gets changed usually every tire change.

If you come across good parts at a good price grab them. Valkyries, Goldwings and ST1100's are all looking for these same parts (spline hubs).

 

[ST1100Y]

I'd also post a pic of the wheel's bearing-boss, just to be sure...
That parts centers and guides the spline... if that's damaged the tooting goes in no time...

 

[Erdoc48]

To rwthomas, what’s the mileage on your ST? Just wanted to know

 

[Andrew Shadow]

One thing I've never agreed with is many will say the inner splines and outer spline should or must be bought and kept as a matched set.

I agree with you and have never saw why this would be required for the reasons that you have stated.
Usually parts that need to be matched are indicated in the manual and the parts list that they need to be purchased/replaced in sets. In this case the gear set (pinion and ring gear) are sold as a matched set and the service manual also states that they must be replaced as a set. I have not seen such a stipulation for the rear wheel driven gear in the service manual or the parts list. It is sold separately.

 

[red one]

There has been much discussion on this. W0QNX has had good results with TS70 paste from tsmoly.com, he's got more miles than just about anyone. The Loctite 8012 is one of the trusted products. However I just had a bad experience with it. Could it be the packed in old product that did it? I dunno. There was some mention of the paste needing to be either an NLGI #1 or #2. Apparently the 8012 isn't the right NLGI#? Apparently the TS70 is? I have no idea, this all becomes quite esoteric when I just want to ride. And now I see wear that is, to me, unexplained, unexpected, and disappointing. TS70 is what I'm trying this time. The Honda 77, IIRC is not recommended anymore because the formulation changed? Anyway, do some reading.

RT

Yes I will. I may also use what Raymond uses since it does the job for him.

 

[Sunday Rider]

I have 2 wheel flanges and I change them up when I put on a new tire. How is the thrust washer, are the rubber and aluminum inserts tight?

 

[rwthomas1]

I'd also post a pic of the wheel's bearing-boss, just to be sure...
That parts centers and guides the spline... if that's damaged the tooting goes in no time...

What the heck is the bearing boss? Nothing else is worn and the wheel bearings are tight.....

I have 2 wheel flanges and I change them up when I put on a new tire. How is the thrust washer, are the rubber and aluminum inserts tight?

Thrust washer, I assume you mean the plastic one that goes between the drive spider and the wheel? That's in good shape.

rubber/aluminum were new last year....

To rwthomas, what’s the mileage on your ST? Just wanted to know

Right around 80K?

 

[Al st1100]

I am beginning to believe that the Loctite 8012 is not as good for this application as it has been purported to be, and that it may not be up to the task over long duration.

There was a post on a different site and it was stated that the 8012 needed to be mixed 50/50 with a wheel bearing grease. I never had problems with moly till the first time I used 8012, it dried out.

 

[bdalameda]

For many years I have used WS2 Grease for splines, bearings and seals. WS2 (tungsten disulphide) is superior in every way to moly greases and coatings. Once applied the WS2 will burnish into the surface and stay put. It is expensive at about 99.00 for a 1 kg tub or 54.00 for a 14oz tube. but it lasts for a very long time. My last 1 kg tub lasted for over 5 years. This stuff stays put on splines and steering head bearings and is very water resistant. It is available from a company called Lower Friction.

https://lowerfriction.com/content/Grease%20Brochure%20MK-WS2-HT.pdf

 

[John OoSTerhuis]

What the heck is the bearing boss? Nothing else is worn and the wheel bearings are tight.....

The ‘bearing ‘boss’ is the raised portion of the right side inner wheel ‘hub’ that the double-row bearing fits into. The outer/edge/surface of the bearing when correctly installed should be flush with the surrounding ‘boss’ of the wheel hub. There have been some examples of extreme wear where the boss’ surface is worn down exposing the end of the bearing. Sorry, I don’t have a picture of that saved, hopefully someone will chime in with one.

John