Final Drive.

[Mr.E]

This may be covered elsewhere and is just a Heads-Up observation for all.
I'm putting on new rubber for a trip to the French Alps in a few weeks and noticed a pile of muck and corrosion inside the wheel spline drive area (as Photo).
Cleaned it all out and looks like dirt & muck got in around the sensor as arrowed, so that's now silicone sealed and all re-greased.

 

[Sadlsor]

Good you found that and addressed a potential unfortunate situation.
I'm sure some will be along shortly, however, to question your lubrication selection. Is that moly paste used there?
I've only seen it in dark gray / black color.

 

[leonides]

This may be covered elsewhere and is just a Heads-Up observation for all.
I'm putting on new rubber for a trip to the French Alps in a few weeks and noticed a pile of muck and corrosion inside the wheel spline drive area (as Photo).
Cleaned it all out and looks like dirt & muck got in around the sensor as arrowed, so that's now silicone sealed and all re-greased.

This is not the right grease for this area. The centrifugal force will take it away.
One of the right ones is the LOCTITE LB 8012,

 

[Igofar]

The red grease you put on the splines (that require moly PASTE) will probably damage your splines by the time you get back.
Not sure why you tried to silicone seal next to your ABS sensor either?
Do you have a service manual for your bike?

 

[Mr.E]

I'll go shopping for the Honda ST grease next week... the grease I used here is very high spec Total Multis Complex EP2 and specified for my Triumph Rocket 3 ~ specifically for the drive shaft splines in the UV joint and Diff drive.

 

[Mr.E]

It looks like the muck that I cleaned out had entered this area and mixed in with the lube on the splines then started to work as a grinding compound!
The horse may have bolted all ready and damage is done, but I've noticed slight wear on the DRIVE splines, the rear wheel DRIVEN splines look okay though.
I don't have the Service Book - but I do wonder what the spline free play should be on the rear wheel...
I'm a sedate rider and this ST is a "keeper" so she'll be spoiled rotten from here on.
EDIT: Noticed a good gap around the sensor, this seems to be the only place where dirt etc. can get in so that is now sealed - but easily unsealed if I need to remove the plastic guard in the future.

 

[Igofar]

Shaft splines and cv joints require grease and not Paste.
Your triumph stuff will damage your Honda.
I have seen splines damaged within a few hundred miles using the wrong stuff.

 

[Igofar]

If you see shelving on the male splines, it will start taking out the splines in the pumpkin.
You probably don’t have the equipment or tools to rebuild the driveshaft assembly, which run upwards to five grand in specialty tools, and if you just replace the spline plate, with a new one once the pumpkin splines are worn, it will start wearing the new part out.
They work together.
Just do yourself a favor and purchase some LB8012 paste and protect both pieces.
The Honda M77 has been known to damage stuff too, and many folks think it was the wrong replacement for the Honda Moly 60 paste.

 

[Mr.E]

Appreciate your advice Larry.

Easy enough to replace the lube, just hope the drive train hasn't worn beyond the limit.

Also cleaned out the swinging arm while I'm in that area and put in a rubber skirt to keep out the stones, I recon the previous owners have been ploughing fields with this bike!

 

[Igofar]

Appreciate your advice Larry.

Easy enough to replace the lube, just hope the drive train hasn't worn beyond the limit.

Also cleaned out the swinging arm while I'm in that area and put in a rubber skirt to keep out the stones, I recon the previous owners have been ploughing fields with this bike!

Honda should have made a mud guard to protect the exhaust system like that.
While you have your rear wheel off, may I suggest that you remove the large c clip and pull the spline plate off the wheel and inspect your flange bearings and replace the Inner O ring inside the hub.

 

[Mr.E]

Hmm, wish the previous keepers fitted something there.
Big circlip taken off, checked cush-drive rubbers and bearings all looks okay, looked for the inner O ring (more a Square ring by the look of it), found it and now on order.

 

[Mellow]

Appreciate your advice Larry.

Easy enough to replace the lube, just hope the drive train hasn't worn beyond the limit.

Also cleaned out the swinging arm while I'm in that area and put in a rubber skirt to keep out the stones, I recon the previous owners have been ploughing fields with this bike!

Dude! Don't use Ice Cream on your splines!.... Only frozen yogurt!

 

[Mr.E]

Found one of your links Joe: http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Shaft.html#Gears



EDIT: Checked the splines further today and decided that they are on the way out but this is big bucks to replace (around $1500) so will look for a bike breaker.

I have some J-B Weld and wonder if it's worth using it as a temporary fix to take up the play, maybe it will be okay for the 2,600 mile French trip, could the worst scenario be that it just gradually works back to the current play that exists at the moment?

 

[W0QNX]

Found one of your links Joe: http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Shaft.html#Gears



EDIT: Checked the splines further today and decided that they are on the way out but this is big bucks to replace (around $1500) so will look for a bike breaker.

I have some J-B Weld and wonder if it's worth using it as a temporary fix to take up the play, maybe it will be okay for the 2,600 mile French trip, could the worst scenario be that it just gradually works back to the current play that exists at the moment?

JB weld would be a very bad idea.

This is a mechanic joint area just like the gears in the transmission. There is movement present they are just straight cut gears. The Moly takes the load off the spline actual metal surface.

The splines will last a long long time in the condition shown from your picture. Clean all the red off and use a Moly paste only. I use TS70 moly.

TS-70 Moly Paste

FYI there is no movement up and down ON the spline joint just the faces hitting each other during rotating use. The bearings inside the splined flange eliminate (most .001"?) up-down movement where most think it might be a lot more, only rotational "slapping" at that location. The bearing races in the flange and all the other bearing races create a long "sleeve" from left to right in a cylindrical layer just out of the axle. So there is no up down movement on the spline flange at the driven flange. When you tighten the axle nut you are locking this sleeve of races from left to right. Everything rides-slides-rolls on that cylinder.

One of the key items to keeping the "crud" or water out of the spline areas is that Oring at the base of the male spline. It seals up against the female spline where the female splines are chamfered when everything is tighten down. If you have the pumpkin off the bike insert the male splines (and push it in) and look down in there, the oring seals the spline joint up at the chamfer.

FYI my splines have 332,500 miles on them and are nearing half worn in width of the spline. Your's will make it 2,500 miles if you use moly paste and a good Oring. I'm going to replace mine soon.

Final comment. Many think it's important that male splines stay with the original drive pumpkin female splines in order to preserve that "wear' condition. If you think about it every time the wheel is removed unless it's returned to the exact same spline to spline location you've changed the wear point on the splines joint on each wheel install.

I've never heard of anyone trying to reinstall the male splines back into the same female spline it was removed from. This is a designed wear joint and compared to the Valkyrie's similar design the ST is a great design! The Vakyrie is missing those all important spline hub 2 small bearings.

 

[Fawlty]

JB weld would be a very bad idea.

This is a mechanic joint area just like the gears in the transmission. There is movement present they are just straight cut gears. The Moly takes the load off the spline actual metal surface.

The splines will last a long long time in the condition shown from your picture. Clean all the red off and use a Moly paste only. I use TS70 moly.

TS-70 Moly Paste

FYI there is no movement up and down ON the spline joint just the faces hitting each other during rotating use. The bearings inside the splined flange eliminate (most .001"?) up-down movement where most think it might be a lot more, only rotational "slapping" at that location. The bearing races in the flange and all the other bearing races create a long "sleeve" from left to right in a cylindrical layer just out of the axle. So there is no up down movement on the spline flange at the driven flange. When you tighten the axle nut you are locking this sleeve of races from left to right. Everything rides-slides-rolls on that cylinder.

One of the key items to keeping the "crud" or water out of the spline areas is that Oring at the base of the male spline. It seals up against the female spline where the female splines are chamfered when everything is tighten down. If you have the pumpkin off the bike insert the male splines (and push it in) and look down in there, the oring seals the spline joint up at the chamfer.

FYI my splines have 332,500 miles on them and are nearing half worn in width of the spline. Your's will make it 2,500 miles if you use moly paste and a good Oring. I'm going to replace mine soon.

Final comment. Many think it's important that male splines stay with the original drive pumpkin female splines in order to preserve that "wear' condition. If you think about it every time the wheel is removed unless it's returned to the exact same spline to spline location you've changed the wear point on the splines joint on each wheel install.

I've never heard of anyone trying to reinstall the male splines back into the same female spline it was removed from. This is a designed wear joint and compared to the Valkyrie's similar design the ST is a great design! The Vakyrie is missing those all important spline hub 2 small bearings.

Very informative post. Thanks.

 

[Al Gully]

Checked the splines further today and decided that they are on the way out but this is big bucks to replace.
I have some J-B Weld and wonder if it's worth using it as a temporary fix to take up the play,

The flat answer is no.
Gears have 3 actions happening when they mesh The first action when they touch is a sliding action, the next action at the pitch line is a rolling action and the final action is sliding when they release.
Also along with that, the hertz pressure and heat would destroy any quick fix products you use.
What I believe Honda did when they hardened these final drive gears is made the final drive male set (external gear) a little softer and the internal gears in the pumpkin a bit harder so they wear less.
Take a few pictures of the gears and post them. If the wear is just starting, you can get a way with a good 60% moly lubricant while your on the hunt for new or slightly used one.

 

[Mr.E]

Lucky me, I've just found a complete Final Drive Hub Gear and matching Final Drive Diff on eBay for £99 = $119, spoke to the seller and he assures me that there is absolutely zero play between the two items. It'll be with me on Tuesday along with new O rings and Honda M77 paste.
Happy days, I can relax knowing all is well at the rear now.
Brand new replacements total cost around $1,822

I don't have Macro on my camera so I've put them both together flat on the bench and measured the radial movement/play on one of the 4 cushdrive dogs and have approx. 2.5mm = 0.098" play. Too much slack for my liking so this old unit is history.

BTW, bike is the A9 / 2011 and only done 55,000 miles.

 

[Al Gully]

My 1982 Honda Sabre came with this exact final drive, after 10,000 Km's (6,000 miles), I was sitting at a light and went to go.
No go, pushed it to a farm house and got it towed home. About 15 miles for the tow.
Never even wore out the original tire from Japan yet.
My external gears were stripped right out, the internal gears in the pumpkin where fine.
My 1982 shop manual says EP2 grease in it, that is so wrong.
Thank God for evolution, 60% moly or better only goes on my splines now.
Wish I knew about warranty back when I was a kid. I bought a new final drive flange and paid for it my self and also installed it myself.
My bikes have never seen the inside of a Honda shop except for the recall for my beer can Budweiser steel cams they used in my 1982 Honda Sabre.
Looking back, I don't even think Honda changed them out, but billed Mother Honda for the service.

 

[David Fyffe]

Do not use Honda M77, per Larry's (IGOFAR) INSTRUCTIONS.

 

[core-aggie]

I have some J-B Weld

Bad. Idea.

and Honda M77 paste.

Bad. Idea.