Headers - bolt between headers and engine block snatched off!

[roxteady]

So, nightmare hit! I was loosening the bolts for the headers and one of the bolts broke off. Is this the end of my ST1300? (Sorry to seem dramatic, but really disappointed with myself here).

Any thoughts from anyone? Presume the bolts are part of the engine block? Will welding the bolt be sufficient to hold the header to the engine block?

Thanks for all input.

 

[dwalby]

I'd hope that those are studs that thread into the engine and once you have the exhaust off you can spray some penetrating oil in there to make it easier to extract the broken stud.

 

[STRider]

Absolutely studs. Steel into the aluminum head. Not a fun chore but survivable. Add heat to the penetrating oil treatment. The remaining amount of threads will make the extraction challenging - not enough left to attempt a double-nut jam arrangement. You might need to have a single nut welded to the remaining threads to get it out.

Requires removal of the remaining parts of the exhaust to accomplish, so be careful removing the other nuts. Same heat and penetrating oil approach. Start with a heat gun versus a torch if you can. An impact driver might also be a good option.

Those white streaks on the flats of the nut make me wonder if your wrench or socket wasn't the best fit and did some rounding of the flats. Maybe not, that could be just the smearing of the surface from the contact pressure during your attempt to remove it - either way I'd use the best 6-point socket you have when removing the remaining nuts.

 

[Josh_ST]

Agreed, they are typically studs that are threaded in to the head, and a nut holding on the flange. Go ahead and remove the exhaust, and then I'd try penetrating oil on the broken one and a pair of Vise grips on to the part sticking out.

 

[roxteady]

Looks like this - as attached! However, only have about half a centimeter of grip. Will maybe try to bore the bolt for more grip.

 

[Josh_ST]

I don't know what tools you have at your disposal, but you could also weld a nut to the remainder of the stud. The shock of the heating from the welding should also help loosen the stud as well.

Here's one of many examples on the 'tubes...

 

[Igofar]

The video was the right approach, however, he snapped off the first attempt because he didn't use ANY penetrating oil (WD-40 is Not Penetrating oil), and he was only trying to FORCE it in one direction. The second time, you'll notice he had more luck when he turned it back and forth in both directions (cleaning the debris out of the threads).
I would try Heat/Penetrating oil first.
Work the stud in both directions etc.
Then welding would be my last resort.
Remember, your working with an ALUMINUM block, not the nice piece of STEEL he was working with, so be careful.
Good luck.

 

[Capital]

Had this on Yamaha head. 5 minutes of work for a welder (carefuly welding a nut to the remainings of pin, not to melt aluminium). I wouldn’t bother “fixing” myself and take it to a trusted welder.

 

[roxteady]

I am so incredibly appreciative for the response here, and also for the positive thoughts and feedback. I am already in dialogue with a pro welder and will take my ST13 to him on a trailer! Thanks again, fantastic support as always!

 

[ST1100Y]

BTDT... (drilled the stud out BTW, carefully cleaned & re-tapped the bore...)
Which is why I apply a smear of copper-paste on such threads upon assembly, easing any future loosening attempts a couple of years from now...

 

[Oldbikefixr]

This is all too familiar. I've gotten into the habit of applying penetrating oil around exhaust fasteners and tired/rusty looking fasteners. I usually let it set overnight or longer, with an occasional respray. If it doesn't move with I think is sufficient pressure on the wrench, use heat and more penetrating oil per Igofar's suggestion.
This little routine may sound messy and time consuming, but not so much as extracting a broken stud or bolt.

 

[roxteady]

The video was the right approach, however, he snapped off the first attempt because he didn't use ANY penetrating oil (WD-40 is Not Penetrating oil), and he was only trying to FORCE it in one direction. The second time, you'll notice he had more luck when he turned it back and forth in both directions (cleaning the debris out of the threads).
I would try Heat/Penetrating oil first.
Work the stud in both directions etc.
Then welding would be my last resort.
Remember, your working with an ALUMINUM block, not the nice piece of STEEL he was working with, so be careful.
Good luck.

Thanks for this. A couple of things.
- would a heat gun or hair dryer be sufficient, or would an induction warmer be needed? Probably not the last due to the immediate proximity of aluminium.
- I only got about half a cm of "grip" (the piece of bolt sticking out from the engine block. Any thougs on how to best grip the piece? I have not removed the other bolt yet (pure fear of the same happening again), so unsure if there is also thread on the bolt outside of the block?
- does anyone know what way the bolt is threaded inside the engine block?
Thanks again for all the input!

 

[SMSW]

Thanks for this. A couple of things.
- would a heat gun or hair dryer be sufficient, or would an induction warmer be needed? Probably not the last due to the immediate proximity of aluminium.
- I only got about half a cm of "grip" (the piece of bolt sticking out from the engine block. Any thougs on how to best grip the piece? I have not removed the other bolt yet (pure fear of the same happening again), so unsure if there is also thread on the bolt outside of the block?
- does anyone know what way the bolt is threaded inside the engine block?
Thanks again for all the input!

I thought you said you were talking w/ a pro welder.... If you only have a cm/2 to grip, I suggest you stay away from it with visegrips and pipe wrenches. Two tenths of an inch (your 1/2 cm) is not enough to grip with any commonly available tool. It broke off once, buggering up the remainder of the shaft will leave you with a far more difficult removal task. While YMMV, I'd have a pro weld the nut and remove it. And having broken one, I'd flood the second with penetrating oil, apply heat, and use an impact wrench. Heat - torch on the bolt is the way to go and not too much.

I am pretty sure the stud is threaded conventionally - it is not a reverse thread in the block. Note though, that my
'pretty sure' is not enough to take to the bank - wait for others who have removed that stud to chime in. (Consider this, though, if it were a left hand thread, your efforts to tighten the nut holding the manifold in place would tend to loosen the stud. Not a good idea from an engineering pov.)

 

[ST-Traveler]

The stud into the block -- pretty sure -- righty tighty---.. and the nut on the stud is -- righty tighty---
---speculation only.. it makes since----

However the threads on the block side are probably different than the threads on the nut side---not that any of that matters--

I am hoping you get the problem taken care of soon. I know the feeling.....

 

[ST1100Y]

- would a heat gun

A few circles with that, plus good penetrating oil might help a bit

- I only got about half a cm of "grip" (the piece of bolt sticking out from the engine block. Any thougs on how to best grip the piece?

A good set of vice pliers might do the trick, clip them on really firm and wiggle the bugger after heating the area; dunno if you've enough clearance though...
There also some stud retractor socket kits avail, but don't know if 5mm are sufficient to get a grip.

 

[STRider]

This is the way....

 

[Josh_ST]

I love Ave, gotta break out the hot metal glue gun!

 

[roxteady]

So; as an update to the snatched bolt between the cylinder head and the manifold, I have now had the Pan in two different mechanical workshops, both said to be good welders. The first workshop apparently hardened the bolt, essentially making it impossible for the second workshop to get it out. They also drilled a small hole above the bolt and filled it with penetrating oil / rust remover. Not a chance says the guy. I have run out of workshops in the area, so supposedly my last option is now to by a second hand cylinder head and make this my winter project...
I am fairly experienced as a hobby mechanic, but might not have all special tools.
Does anyone have any idea about the work involved in replacing the left cylinder head on a 2002 1300? Any input welcome.
Many thanks for all input.

Honda ST 1300 Pan European (ST1300 ST1300A) Cylinder Head Left | Boonstra Parts

Boonstra Parts is the website for Honda ST 1300 Pan European (ST1300 ST1300A) Cylinder Head Left

www.boonstraparts.com

 

[Roger]

If you have a steady hand, what about drilling the stud out, with larger and larger drill bits? With luck, you might shift the remains of the stud and keep some threads. Even if you get the stud out and have a plain hole - you can tap and helicoil......? Never had to do it myself, so may be talking out of my bottom, but surely worth a try before getting another cylinder head.

 

[Nashcat]

I worked in industrial maintenance for 35 years, and hardly a day went by without having to remove a broken screw. The best penetrating oil I found is Kroil or Aerokroil, in the spray can. Apply oil and a little heat. Repeat several times. Take a sharp pointed punch and using a hammer, lightly strike the end of the stud. The vibration will help loosen the treads.

You’ll probably have to drill the stud and use a screw extractor. Drill the hole through the complete length of the stud so you can get oil behind it.

It also sounds like the mechanics that you found, aren’t that experienced in removing studs. Most auto mechanics have done this many times.

John