Headers - bolt between headers and engine block snatched off!

[Mr.E]

Sounds like your having a real nightmare here!
If you feel like having a go yourself, it might be better to apply heat with a small propane/butane gas torch to the Aluminium rather than the Steel stud ~ as Aluminium will expand faster than steel so this gives you a better chance of breaking the grip on the stud.
You mention the 1st mechanic has HARDENED the stud? if so, a good quality Stud Extracting kit might be a waste of money (unless your other studs are the same) as you need to drill into the stud.
Otherwise, maybe consider having a welder join a new short piece of threaded stud onto that bit sticking out something like 2nd photo, but obviously more in-line than I can get it... LOL!

 

[mello dude]

Following this thread as is I have header removal job coming up.....
Sponging up all the ideas here.......
- another......there is a YT guy I watch once in a while....Mustie1...I seem to remember, his method was to hit with hammer the fastener before you start messing with it..?...trying to find the video..

 

[Flash 2002]

I took a few bad rusty bolts out with a mixture of acetone and transmission oil and it works great. If the stud is to short to grab, try to weld a nut on the stud it will give you something to grip.

 

[roxteady]

Thanks for all the replies, but unfortunately I think all hope is gone for the bolt. I will however try one more mechanics workshop before giving up home, but let's say that this does not work;
is it in any way possible to remove and replace the left cylinder head without removing the whole engine block? The way the cylinder head is angled, it gives the impression of being possible to pull out sideways.
Would it be a heck of a job or relatively straight forward?
From the parts list overview below of the head cover and actual cylinder head I get optimistic, but I am an optimist of nature.

Input welcome as always.

 

[Flash 2002]

Before you take it all apart, I would try anything to get it out. You have nothing to lose, try to drill it out and retread even if you go bigger your going to scrap it anyways. I cant see why a garage cant do the job, I'm sure it's not the first time they see a broken bolt.

 

[roxteady]

Before you take it all apart, I would try anything to get it out. You have nothing to lose, try to drill it out and retread even if you go bigger your going to scrap it anyways. I cant see why a garage cant do the job, I'm sure it's not the first time they see a broken bolt.

Thanks for this and fully agree - will definitely do! I thought about one solution - how about drilling tiny holes in a circle around the stuck bolt and get it loose this way, followed by re-drilling a (much) larger hole? And the put in something like the below made of steel?

My fury from my own stupid actions resulting in this situation is driving me towards new ideas as the days run by...

 

[ST1100Y]

Thanks for this and fully agree - will definitely do! I thought about one solution - how about drilling tiny holes in a circle around the stuck bolt and get it loose this way,

That's a bad idea, weakening the aluminum engine head...

My fury from my own stupid actions resulting in this situation is driving me towards new ideas as the days run by...

I partly understand the emotions there, but patience is the way...
I'd clear the area by removing the heat-shields on both sides, loosen all down-pipe flanges (yep, this calls for new copper gaskets), detach the bolt holding the exhaust collector box (above the main-stand) and drop the entire exhaust assy below the engine...
Now as clearance is given I'd flatten the broken end of the bolt (i.e. DrEmel), then center-punch (first easy, if not aligned hold the punch at an angle to move the dented into the center, once there a good brief final smack with the hammer), I usually start with a 2 or 3mm drill-bit (sharp, quality, cobalt coated set) and use a drop of some designated drill/coolant oil (nope, not WD40...), then a 4m... by then heat and torque might already loosen the stub, enabling use of a retractor bit, if this doesn't work easy (never force that, a piece of broken off, hardened steel is nearly impossible to remove...) quit and get a 5mm drill-bit... if punch-mark and previous drilling were perfectly centered, you'll can peel the remaining steel threads out the aluminum blind-hole there...

If you mess up that bore in any way, you'll need to install a TimeSert sleeve...

 

[Andrew Shadow]

Since the nut is broken off, most of the tension has been relieved from the threads. Only the initial torque used to seat the stud is present, and that isn't very much. Mostly what is holding it is crud and galvanic corrosion. Soak it regularly with a high quality penetrating fluid, one that is designed to defeat corrosion. That is not WD-40. Give it a squirt a couple of times a day whenever you walk by it and let it soak for a few days so the fluid can work its way up in to the threads.

The best thing would be if you get a nut or another bolt or rod welded to it to allow you to more easily work it back and forth. If this is not possible, and if you have enough room to get access, drill it as dead-centre as you can. I recommend a good quality cutting oil which allows the drill bit to cut better, reduces the risk of breaking it, and reduces the heat because you do not want to overheat and harden the stud even more. Use left-hand drill bits preferably. If you get lucky, one of the drill bits might eventually spin it loose as you are drilling. If not, you needed to drill the hole anyway. Be mindful of the depth and to not drill to far and drill in to the head. Then try and work the stud loose with a good quality extractor. Don't try to just force it out with the easy-out, you'll break the extractor. Don't apply any lateral force to the extractor either or it will snap, and that is the last thing that you want to do as they are very hard and can't be drilled. Work it back and forth gently until you get a little movement. You can buy both left-hand and right-hand extractors so that you can work it in both directions. As soon as you get some movement stop. Don't get excited and go for it. Once you get a little movement, this means that you have broken the bond that the corrosion has on the threads. The fluid now has a better chance of penetrating further in to the threads. Soak it some more with the penetrating fluid while working it back and forth to help the fluid get in there. Then let it soak for a while again. Keep doing this. Hopefully you will get a little more movement each time until you can finally unscrew it.

If the above fails, progressively drill larger holes until you have gone to as big a diameter as possible without removing any of the internal threads in the head. Using a good quality cutting oil again and a tap of the correct size and thread pitch to match the internal threads in the head, carefully run the tap in to the hole to remove whatever material is remaining of the stud. Back the tap out often to clear out the metal chips so that the tap doesn't bind and break. Hopefully, you will be left with the original threads in the head undamaged.

If access is sufficient to allow me to properly centre and manipulate the drill to allow me to drill the hole where I want it, I usually go straight to the last method and drill and re-tap it.

 

[Igofar]

Have someone with a line welder, weld a nut to the end of the broken stud, then with penetrating oil and a wrench/socket, you may have a better chance than trying to grab it with pliers or vice grips etc.

 

[roxteady]

Since the nut is broken off, most of the tension has been relieved from the threads. Only the initial torque used to seat the stud is present, and that isn't very much. Mostly what is holding it is crud and galvanic corrosion. Soak it regularly with a high quality penetrating fluid, one that is designed to defeat corrosion. That is not WD-40. Give it a squirt a couple of times a day whenever you walk by it and let it soak for a few days so the fluid can work its way up in to the threads.

The best thing would be if you get a nut or another bolt or rod welded to it to allow you to more easily work it back and forth. If this is not possible, and if you have enough room to get access, drill it as dead-centre as you can. I recommend a good quality cutting oil which allows the drill bit to cut better, reduces the risk of breaking it, and reduces the heat because you do not want to overheat and harden the stud even more. Use left-hand drill bits preferably. If you get lucky, one of the drill bits might eventually spin it loose as you are drilling. If not, you needed to drill the hole anyway. Be mindful of the depth and to not drill to far and drill in to the head. Then try and work the stud loose with a good quality extractor. Don't try to just force it out with the easy-out, you'll break the extractor. Don't apply any lateral force to the extractor either or it will snap, and that is the last thing that you want to do as they are very hard and can't be drilled. Work it back and forth gently until you get a little movement. You can buy both left-hand and right-hand extractors so that you can work it in both directions. As soon as you get some movement stop. Don't get excited and go for it. Once you get a little movement, this means that you have broken the bond that the corrosion has on the threads. The fluid now has a better chance of penetrating further in to the threads. Soak it some more with the penetrating fluid while working it back and forth to help the fluid get in there. Then let it soak for a while again. Keep doing this. Hopefully you will get a little more movement each time until you can finally unscrew it.

If the above fails, progressively drill larger holes until you have gone to as big a diameter as possible without removing any of the internal threads in the head. Using a good quality cutting oil again and a tap of the correct size and thread pitch to match the internal threads in the head, carefully run the tap in to the hole to remove whatever material is remaining of the stud. Back the tap out often to clear out the metal chips so that the tap doesn't bind and break. Hopefully, you will be left with the original threads in the head undamaged.

If access is sufficient to allow me to properly centre and manipulate the drill to allow me to drill the hole where I want it, I usually go straight to the last method and drill and re-tap it.

Thank you for the detailed description - really appreciated. Based on the feedback so far from the motorbike workshop is that the previous workshop has apparently used so much heat that drilling into the bolt is basically impossible. I would presume that some sort of left hand drill bits should still be able to go in, but curious why the professional motorbike workshop says that it is impossible.
When I get the bike back, I will definitely try your way though.

 

[dbst1300]

To the OP……I googled machine shops in Oslo, Norway and found quite a few. I would call several and ask if they could remove the broken stud.
If so, trailer the bike to the machine shop for the repair. I suspect several local machinists could remove and repair the broken stud.

 

[Igofar]

To the OP……I googled machine shops in Oslo, Norway and found quite a few. I would call several and ask if they could remove the broken stud.
If so, trailer the bike to the machine shop for the repair. I suspect several local machinists could remove and repair the broken stud.

And probably a whole lot cheaper than a motorcycle shop

 

[Andrew Shadow]

If the broken stud was heated excessively it has been tempered, or heat treated, making the steel harder than it was before it was heated. Part of why I stressed a quality cutting oil and going slowly to keep the heat down as much as possible. If this is the case, the steel is now very hard and difficult to drill. This is even more difficult in-situ because you have to use a hand drill instead of a drill press. Drilling this kind of steel is best done with a Cobalt bit however, Cobalt bits are extremely hard and therefore brittle. Any lateral movement of the drill while the bit is in the hole and they will snap off, and they are almost impossible to drill out. This is why Cobalt drill bits are never recommended for use in hand drilling.

You will never know until you try. I would suggest a couple of brand new good quality drill bits used with some good quality cutting oil and see what happens. You have nothing to loose.

I don't remember if you mentioned it already or not, but did you explain your situation to a machinist at a machine shop, not a motorcycle shop? Either bring the motorcycle there to show them or show them pictures? It is surprising what a talented machinist can extract. They would be better suited to tackle this than a motorcycle shop.

Another option is to ask around at some machine shops and find out who can do EDM machining* in your area. While I know that portable EDM machines exist, I don't know if there is sufficient room to get it set up and used while the head is still installed in the motorcycle as I have never seen a portable one. All of the EDM machines that I had access to were big bench mounted set ups that were designed to have the part brought to them and mounted securely in place. If you find somewhere who does it, they will be able to tell you if it is possible to do in-situ or not.

*
EDM is electric discharge machining. It is a process that is often used to deal with broken fasteners when all other options have failed. EDM actually burns the metal away rather than removing it. Depending on the particular circumstances, they can usually control it so that the stud gets burned away and the surrounding metal is not touched. It is guaranteed that this stud can be removed using EDM, but how much damage to the head, if any, is the question. An EDM operator can answer that question for you.

If, in the end you need to remove the head, I would not replace it. Once it is removed, any decent machine shop should be able to remove that stud.

Good luck, and let us know how you make out.

 

[Nashcat]

A good machine shop should have some tungsten carbide drill bits that will drill even hardened metal. Solid carbide bits are a little too expensive for most automotive garages, but machine shops usually have them. A single 4mm bit is around $20, but worth every penny, when it’s the only thing that works.

John

 

[Al Gully]

At lot of great comments on here from backyard mechanics, experienced mechanics and from the best of the bunch, industrial mechanics.
Before I add any suggestions, can you post a few more pictures on what your dealing with now.
After the 2 shops you used, it sounds like you painted a different picture from what you were dealing with when you had it at home.

 

[Daver314]

I hate to jump onto this thread with yet another "hey have you tried this??"

But I'm going to anyway. This is likely another one of those things that I would try if I were already at the point of looking to replace the cylinder head over the issue. I had success in similar situations with an impact screw driver. The kind you hit with a hammer and it turns only a tiny bit in a given direction with each blow. If you can cut a slot into the end of that stud, then you can fit a flathead screwdriver into it. The hardening of that stud will only help you in this case. The key is to strike it only until its free enough to turn it with something else. Because you are applying force directly toward the stud, instead of in a circular motion, the driver is far less likely to strip or jump out of the slot you cut.

You can usually find an inexpensive (like, worth buying for just one job) at the budget tool shops like princess auto or harbor freight. Not sure if you have something similar in your neck of the woods. Amazon might be your best friend here.

This is what I'm talking about:

TEKTON 3/8 in. Drive Impact Screwdriver Set (7-Piece) 2905 - The Home Depot

Loosen corroded brake caliper screws, rusted body panel fasteners or frozen bolts with ease using the TEKTON 3/8 in. Drive Reversible Manual Impact Driver Set. This unique tool converts a hammer strike

www.homedepot.com

I stripped the engine bay of an old project car once, and one of these was worth its weight in gold to me for that project.

 

[SMSW]

Have someone with a line welder

Larry, what is a line welder? Do you mean a wire fed MIG?

I would presume that some sort of left hand drill bits should still be able to go in, but curious why the professional motorbike workshop says that it is impossible.

Probably ignorance or sloth. As mentioned above, machine shops have expensive tungsten carbide bits that will cut hardened steel. And one could always take a dremel tool with their diamond dusted bits and slowly grind out much of the hardened bolt as a last resort. When customers told me that the last contractor told them what they wanted either did not exist or could not be done, I told them that was contractor-speak for "I don't have one in my truck and I'm too lazy to go get it for you." or "I don't want to do that". Of course, it also could have been a case of "what you want is too expensive but I'm not interested in discussing it with you".

I'm more concerned about that hole you said someone drilled to fill w/ penetrating oil. Was that in the aluminum?

If you end up pulling the cylinder head, taking that to a machine shop might be easier/cheaper than finding a new head, measuring bores and pistons and fitting it to your crankcase. Once the head is removed, the shop can securely mount the cylinder on a milling machine and remove the bolt. Worst case, they might even do some welding (aluminum) and machine a new hole.

 

[bdalameda]

As others have said - take a nut, center it on the broken stud and have an experienced welder weld up inside the hole in the nut and weld the nut to the stud. I have done this many times in the past on all sorts of things. Chrysler exhaust manifold studs break all the time and this works every time to remove them without having to tear everything down.