IN PROGRESS: 2009 Heat Mitigation

[dduelin]

Thicker?? That's not how it works. At operating temperature 10w40 and 15w40 are both 40w oils with specific flow characteristics ascribed to 40w oils. At 15 degrees F a 10w flows thinner than a 15w but at 212 F there is no difference between the two. They are both 40w.

In order to test ideas and hypotheticals you can only change one variable at a time to attribute effect from changing the variable. Changing the oil and insulation at the same time together invalidates the conclusion.

 

[SMSW]

Thicker?? That’s not how it works. At operating temperature 10w40 and 15w40 are both 40w oils with specific flow characteristics ascribed to 40w oils. At 15 degrees F a 10w flows thinner than a 15w but at 212 F there is no difference between the two. They are both 40w.

In order to test ideas and hypotheticals you can only change one variable at a time to attribute effect from changing the variable. Changing the oil and insulation at the same time together invalidates the conclusion.

Thank you. You stated it more clearly than I did. Maybe if a few more people echo this, he'll believe it.

 

[Whooshka]

m..........First the cowls came off. Instant temp drop. Then one of the guys wanted to 3D print ram scoops to install in the side cowls to force air in. Problem with that idea is to move air the bike must move. ...............

#1. Taking the cowls off... of course the temp is gonna drop. You've let trapped heat escape. What were you expecting to happen? Insulating the fairing panels will only keep the panels from absorbing any heat, thus they cannot dissipate heat as the bike is moving. You'll only trap heat to heat up other items.

#2. If you have read about what I have tried, and with pretty good success verified by others, not just me, It's NOT about getting more air in. It's about pulling the hot air out. That's why I said your "side curtains of insulation" to force air down would not work.

Let's face a simple fact, the motor is going to make heat. Even more so on this bike due to the design of it. If you don't want that heat to cook the whole bike, get rid of the heat. Draw the heat out. Let it dissipate.

 

[Whooshka]

I had to call the engineer before I posted because I wanted to be correct. With the insulation on and running 10w40, the surface temp was 180(ish). With the insulation off and running diesel oil, the surface temp dropped to 140 AND the temp of the cooling system (he meant radiator) increased. With the thicker 15w40 the heat is being channeled better into the coolant then being translated to the radiator.
Now to find that magical sweet spot with the sync.

OK I gotta admit this is getting hard to follow. Post numbers 7 & 8 said you reduced the heat by 90%. Why did you strip off the insulation if that was so? I think your biggest positive was flushing your cooling system and changing the thermostat. Oil will not reduce the temps by 40 degrees.

 

[Igofar]

OK I gotta admit this is getting hard to follow. Post numbers 7 & 8 said you reduced the heat by 90%. Why did you strip off the insulation if that was so? I think your biggest positive was flushing your cooling system and changing the thermostat. Oil will not reduce the temps by 40 degrees.

While I agree that flushing the cooling system and changing the thermostat would make a positive impact, I say your wrong that oil will not reduce the temps by 40 degrees.
I probably change more oil on these bikes in a month that most of you have done since you've owned your bike.
Before I start changing stuff on bikes (TB sync, t-stat etc.) I get temp readings from the frame, radiator, exhaust, and engine, with the oil in the bike, then I dump the oil and replace it with 15w-40 diesel oil (normally Delo 400, or Valvoline premium blue) then I take more temp readings. Now I don't have the high tech cameras that this person used, I only have a IR heat gun that I've been using for a few years, but on average, EVERY bike that I've switched to HDEO has shown lower temp readings by as much as 40 degrees.
Wow, how can that be, oil will not lower heat temperatures
My IR gun does not lie. His temps going from 180 to 140 is pretty common, and he has not even done the TB sync yet (which will have more effect on heat than changing the T-stat).
I've arranged for the OP to bring his bike up to Vinny's Place in October where I will personally do a starter valve sync to it and see just how much lower we can get the heat to go.

 

[aniwack]

Post numbers 7 & 8 said you reduced the heat by 90%.

The heat reduction is from insulating between the cowl and the frame to prevent spillover of all that hot air directly on my legs and crotch. The result of stopping the roasting was increasing the core temp of the engine compartment. The hotter the area the more damage that can be done to the electronics. I do believe the engineers at Honda didn't design any of the sensors or main wiring harness to be subjected to a 200 degree temperature environment.

Thicker?? That’s not how it works. At operating temperature 10w40 and 15w40 are both 40w oils with specific flow characteristics ascribed to 40w oils. At 15 degrees F a 10w flows thinner than a 15w but at 212 F there is no difference between the two. They are both 40w.

Let's go back to automotive mechanics 101. The thicker the oil the more heat the oil will trap and move to the cooling system vs a thinner lubricating oil that is going to pass that heat to the engine block. By moving to the cooling system. If we can keep the block from heating, that heat doesn't transfer to the frame which in turn causes the gas tank to boil. Flushing the coolant did not make a difference as it was done in May and again six weeks later.

 

[dduelin]

The heat reduction is from insulating between the cowl and the frame to prevent spillover of all that hot air directly on my legs and crotch. The result of stopping the roasting was increasing the core temp of the engine compartment. The hotter the area the more damage that can be done to the electronics. I do believe the engineers at Honda didn't design any of the sensors or main wiring harness to be subjected to a 200 degree temperature environment.

Let's go back to automotive mechanics 101. The thicker the oil the more heat the oil will trap and move to the cooling system vs a thinner lubricating oil that is going to pass that heat to the engine block. By moving to the cooling system. If we can keep the block from heating, that heat doesn't transfer to the frame which in turn causes the gas tank to boil. Flushing the coolant did not make a difference as it was done in May and again six weeks later.

This is settled science and set forth in SAE viscosity grades. Flawed thought has led you to flawed conclusions. Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean works different in your motorcycle.

The W in a multigrade oil describes its flow characteristics at very low temperatures (-13 degrees F). W means WINTER. The 10 vs 15 only has application under 22 degrees F. If you are riding in 22 degrees F you will appreciate the engine heat the ST1300 creates

The second number describes it's flow characteristics at 212 degrees F. In an engine that has fully warmed up oil any multi weight oil with 40 in it has flow characteristics of any 40 weight oil. 0w40, 5w40, 10w40, 15w40, 20w40, straight 40w.........when fully warmed up all have flow characteristics that match standards ascribed to a 40 weight oil. Not thinner, not thicker, they all meet the SAE standard for an oil rated as Society of Automotive Engineers 40 (SAE 40). These folks don't make things up to suit their audience. SAE standards are objective and subject to rigorous testing methods.

Listen, I applaud your efforts to cool off your bike but think about the tens of millions of miles logged on the ST1300 year after year since 2002. The wiring harness and sensors handle it just fine. You can't change the laws of thermodynamics and make an engine create less heat per hp but you can change how that heat is transferred to the atmosphere. If the bike is overly hot to you that is where you need to work.

 

[Igofar]

Wow, that probably took you about 10 minutes searching google to find all that
As far as the wiring harness and sensors handling the heat, your wrong there my friend.
I've got pictures of knock sensor switches that melted like an old candle, crispy lower and sub harness's that crumble between your fingers, etc.
You work at a dealership now, walk back and ask why the service writer tells customers that if they have to go in and replace an alternator, they tell the customers that they won't do the work unless they replace the harness's because they are always toasted!
This Response comes from SEVERAL dealerships who specialize in PD motors and work on them daily.
Bottom line, you can cut and paste all the info you can find, and it still does not change the fact that I see temps drop approximately 40 degrees after I do a little bit of work on a bike, and NONE of it involves tin foil, drills, or cutting stuff up.
Now why don't you all back off the new guy and stop telling him that his thoughts and conclusions are flawed, that is just not very nice.

 

[MidLife]

.......the same heat capacity.

Did you have a chance to compare conductivity?

 

[SMSW]

Did you have a chance to compare conductivity?

No. But since the heat capacity of water vs. a 50 50 water/antifreeze mix does not change enough to transfer 40% more heat, it is reasonable to assume that 10/40 oil compared to 15/40 oil will similarly not transfer significantly more heat. A further comment is needed here. Some bikes (BMW's and new Harley's, I think) spray oil on the underside of the piston for cooling as well as pump it around the valves. This is a deliberate measure to control heat. Our Hondas, while they have an oil cooler near the filter, dont (as far as I know) deliberately use the oil system to transfer heat. ST's have no oil cooler up front in the air flow like oil coolers/transmission coolers found on cars.

I'm open to reasonable explanations on ways to reduce heat, but lets apply some common sense here - anecdotal evidence does not explain what may (or may not) be happening here.

 

[Whooshka]

..............Let's go back to automotive mechanics 101. The thicker the oil the more heat the oil will trap and move to the cooling system vs a thinner lubricating oil that is going to pass that heat to the engine block. By moving to the cooling system. If we can keep the block from heating, that heat doesn't transfer to the frame which in turn causes the gas tank to boil. Flushing the coolant did not make a difference as it was done in May and again six weeks later.

Auto mechanics 101? The heat is removed from the engine block via the coolant that runs thru the passageways to be eventually dissipated via the radiator. Two oils of the same 40wt. have no affect on this. There may be a minor residual affect because you put in fresh oil. Old oil loses viscosity, doesn't lube as well, creates more friction which equals more heat. How many miles on the old oil? And the coolant flush you did six weeks later included a thermostat change. If your old thermo was not opening all the way there's your temp change right there.

As much as I trust Igofar's advice and knowledge, I find it hard to believe switching oil types would account for a 40 degree drop in operating temps.

 

[Igofar]

Very good comments, thanks for adding them to this thread.
I agree 100% that fresh oil will work better than old oil that has fallen out of grade, however, you must also consider that HDEO is a better quality grade oil (proven by UOA results) than most all of the 10w-40 wt. oils on the market, which could explain why I am always getting lower temp readings all the way to the next oil change, after dumping the 10w-40 oil out and replacing it with a good quality heavy duty engine oil.
Of several UOA tests that came back, Valvoline 10w-40, Castrol 4RT, and the Honda Brand oil in the Red bottles, always did VERY poorly compared to ANY of the HDEO's that I've used/tested.
To keep this from turning into an oil thread, let me just say that just about every bike that has come through with heat issues, has been corrected, and the owners were very happy with the results, and again, none of the stuff done consisted of tin foil, drilling, removing, or cutting anything.
What I found that works the best is a combined effort of HDEO, Proper state of Tune (TB sync) Stock Air Filters, running cooler plugs, raising the seat to the top position, and teaching the rider proper posture on the bike.

 

[Roger]

What I haven't read anywhere is anything about the heat radiated from the (red) hot pipes under the fairing..... Insulate them and the exhaust heat will be sent down the pipes a little further to the silencers and beyond..........

 

[Igofar]

To further prove my point, I did a 200 mile ride yesterday, 85 miles of it lane splitting at 25 mph in 80 degree heat.
My dash temp reading never got past 78 degrees, and I felt normal heat coming from the bike.
I was wearing jeans, sneakers, and ankle high socks, and nothing about the ride was uncomfortable.
I dumped the oil out (it was coming up on 7K miles) and replaced the oil filter and put 4 quarts of Castrol 4RT motorcycle specific oil in there.
After a normal ride on the freeway at 70 mph, for approximately 80 miles, to San Francisco and back, very light surface street traffic, and overcast weather 73 degrees and cloudy, my IR temp readings were up 36-38 degrees with my new motorcycle specific oil.
You can say what you want, but I am seeing IR readings go down when I replace the oil with HDEO, and also seeing temps go UP when switching back to 10w-40 motorcycle specific oil.
Nothing else on the bike was touched.

 

[Igofar]

What I haven't read anywhere is anything about the heat radiated from the (red) hot pipes under the fairing..... Insulate them and the exhaust heat will be sent down the pipes a little further to the silencers and beyond..........

Very good question. I personally do not like header wrap as it tends to cause pipes to rust out faster.
But you bring up a good question about header pipe coatings perhaps.

 

[MidLife]

No.

Was just wondering if you might have access to the conductivity numbers. Was curious to see if it would go some way towards explaining why many have observed running cooler with Diesel Oil. The mechanic I go to also swears by it.