In the middle of a timing belt change RIGHT NOW!

[Dirt Road]

I'm coming back to the discussion late tonight. Coupla points - I did say to tension the belt after putting it on and then check the marks.

What manual are you using? If the Honda manual, follow the last, final step in the whole procedure, the part about initial tensioning and final torque for A NEW TIMING BELT. If you don't have the Honda Manual I can transcribe that part here in a post for you.

Are you installing a Honda new stock timing belt or an aftermarket, e.g. Gates? A new belt's teeth fully seated in their slots in the crank should arrive at the left driven pulley and seat in those slots/valleys so the marks align perfectly. Yours problem there as described would be the first I've ever heard of... hence the mention of double-checking the crank alignment marks. The only other explanation would be a non-standard (length/tooth spacing) belt.

Just a personal observation/comment, but turning the engine over with the spark plugs still installed should have been very difficult. You need a plug wrench. Seriously.

Yes, I'd pull the belt and reinstall as I mentioned above.

John

I do have the Honda manual, and I am following those directions. After mcthorogood pointed out that a plug wrench is in the Honda kit, I remembered that I do actually have one. I took the plugs out and did the procedure again, as I noted above. I am using a Gates, which I hear is the exact same belt just without the branding. I have not done the final step of rotating it three teeth and tightening the tensioner. Because I'm curious, does anyone know why it is important to rotate it three teeth?

Re: double checking the crank alignment marks.
Have you seen my most recent post with the pictures? As you suggest, I double checked. This time I lined up the marks on the driven pulleys and then looked at the crank instead of vice versa. It looks perfect (see the pictures above), leading me to believe that I was lining up the crank badly earlier.

 

[mcthorogood]

Looks great to me!

Looks good to me too. Give yourself a pat on the back.

 

[Dirt Road]

Looks good to me too. Give yourself a pat on the back.

Thanks! I'm fairly confident that it's good too, mostly because it is finally failing to trigger my intense mechanical paranoia. Now I have to put the radiator and the coolant back in. I know I should probably do a full coolant flush and replace it all, but I'd really rather do it another time. I didn't pull any of the drain plugs, just the one on the radiator and then the radiator itself. Can I just put the radiator on and refill the coolant? I get the feeling that the answer is no. I've been reviewing some of the threads on this. How important is the type of coolant I put in? What I have to hand is some basic O'Reilly Universal Prediluted 50/50 Antifreeze/Coolant. Is that good enough, or do I have to go out and find something fancy? Also, about how long does the flush and change procedure usually take once the radiator is back on?

 

[mcthorogood]

The coolant must not contain silicates and has to state the same on the container. I used Prestone non-silicated coolant. Search for the "Ron Major blow job", it'll tell you how to get most of the old coolant out.

 

[Jim Van]

edit: I saw your latest pics and it looks good. Not perfect, the crank appears to be a little CCW of perfect, but as good as you're going to get. The previous pics of the two cams 1/2 tooth CW past their marks would seem to be consistent with a dead on crank (double check that yourself). If that checks out then you're good, and you can't make it any better, so you're done with that task. Now you can look forward to the Honda hoses that are 0.00000001" larger in diameter than the metal pipes they fit over.

Looks like you got it !! Congrats !!

I think your crank pulley must have not been perfectly in the proper position in your previous pics of the two camshaft pulleys.

 

[Jim Van]

Thanks! I'm fairly confident that it's good too, mostly because it is finally failing to trigger my intense mechanical paranoia. Now I have to put the radiator and the coolant back in. I know I should probably do a full coolant flush and replace it all, but I'd really rather do it another time. I didn't pull any of the drain plugs, just the one on the radiator and then the radiator itself. Can I just put the radiator on and refill the coolant? I get the feeling that the answer is no. I've been reviewing some of the threads on this. How important is the type of coolant I put in? What I have to hand is some basic O'Reilly Universal Prediluted 50/50 Antifreeze/Coolant. Is that good enough, or do I have to go out and find something fancy? Also, about how long does the flush and change procedure usually take once the radiator is back on?

I would clean out the dirt & bugs between the radiator fins. Someone suggested using peroxide. Then blast it with a garden hose. If the inside of the radiator looks gunky, you can use some white vinegar to soak the inside of the radiator. Then flush with water - don't exceed 20 psi with your garden hose.

Any antifreeze made today will work fine - it's all silicate-free. I use the "Universal" stuff. If you don't use the prediluted stuff, then dilute with distilled or purified water.

If you aren't sure how old your thermostat is, now would be a good time to replace it. A good substitute is a Stant 13868 ( much cheaper than the OEM Honda item ). You should be able to match up the old O-ring with one from a good auto parts store - not sure that O'Reilly's would have one ( maybe).

BTW, a good sub for the radiator cap is a Stant 11233.

 

[John OoSTerhuis]

I'm coming back to the discussion late tonight.... <snip>

Sorry, Dirt [care to share a real name, pls?]. When I wrote that, the last post in the thread was yours (#37). I got started composing that reply and then was distracted for a while before posting, and straight to bed. I did not see your post (#38) with the pictures. Looks 'good to go' to me! Congrats.

As to the final tensioning and torqueing of the NEW belt, here's what I believe, based on a trusted opinion by my friend, Tim Shevlin, STOC 1183 (posted before on this forum, link):

"Rotating the crank pulley a few teeth (in the direction it moves in normal operation) tightens/takes all the slack out of the belt between the crank pulley, water pump, left driven pulley, idler pulley, and right driven pulley (the "driven" part of the belt's run); thereby, leaving any possible remaining slack between the right driven pulley and the crank pulley. This slack is then taken up/out with the tensioner, slack which might not have been fully removed otherwise, causing the belt to run loose. The tensioner's spring alone is insufficient to tighten the belt fully throughout its run. Note the tensioner is then fixed for good. After a run-in, the belt probably doesn't have any actual tension applied to it, but runs with no slack for the rest of its life. Unlike a cam chain equipped engine, the ST1100 engine's driven cam (timing) belt system is designed to not apply constant tension, just initial tension to a new belt. HTH"

"An additional thought: by turning past the point that all the indexes/marks align, the cam lobes are getting resistance from the valve springs, insuring the driven portion of the belt is tensioned/tight. IINM"

John

 

[John OoSTerhuis]

For those following along, especially those anticipating this job in the future, a couple of more tips:

- The Honda manual calls for loosening the tensioning pulley at the beginning of the procedure by:

Loosen the timing belt tensioner bolt 1/4--1/2 turn. Release the tensioner by turning the crankshaft counterclockwise while holding the right driven pulley, and temporarily tightening the tensioner bolt.

When I did mine that way, it resulted in the belt slipping/popping a number of teeth on the driven (crank) pulley. Quite disconcerting. My second belt R&R I avoided that by just pushing the tensioner down by hand on the tang that the spring is hooked on. Simple and easy... no risk of moving any of the other pulleys. My recommendation these days.

- Anytime someone has the timing belt cover off (or even just the little inspection cover), I recommend filling in the etched T1 and F4 markings on the crank pulley with something white. This makes doing a timing belt R&R and a valve clearance check so much easier. Especially if the front wheel is still on. I used white grease pencil and it's held up just fine for 90K. Paint, 'white-out,' silver 'Sharpie'... whatever works for you. Believe me, you'll be glad you did.
FWIW

BTW, you got good advice about coolant.

John

 

[MaxPete]

Well, this sounds as though the job is nearing its conclusion. Quite the task with lots of great advice and suggestions from all over.

Powell done Dirtroad and please let everyone know when you get that big girl running again.

Pete

PS - I haven't had to do it yet, but I do agree that dealing with removing the camchains on a 1300 for a valve adjustment looks like a major PITA.

 

[Jim Van]

Pete:

I re-read my ST1300 manual last night and they make it sound easy ( Ha !! ). The problem is , there isn't any detail on exactly how to re-assemble and align the camshafts after they are removed. They just say, "Install the camsafts " - cute !! Maybe the technical writer had a hard time understanding the procedure and just left it out.

 

[TerryS]

I would clean out the dirt & bugs between the radiator fins. Someone suggested using peroxide. Then blast it with a garden hose. If the inside of the radiator looks gunky, you can use some white vinegar to soak the inside of the radiator. Then flush with water - don't exceed 20 psi with your garden hose.

Any antifreeze made today will work fine - it's all silicate-free. I use the "Universal" stuff. If you don't use the prediluted stuff, then dilute with distilled or purified water.

If you aren't sure how old your thermostat is, now would be a good time to replace it. A good substitute is a Stant 13868 ( much cheaper than the OEM Honda item ). You should be able to match up the old O-ring with one from a good auto parts store - not sure that O'Reilly's would have one ( maybe).

BTW, a good sub for the radiator cap is a Stant 11233.

I found a nice substitute o-ring at our local industrial seal specialist, 54 x 2mm size. Paid all of $5 for it, also used a thermostat intended for a Honda car, and cheap from a local autoparts store.

 

[dwalby]

I found a nice substitute o-ring at our local industrial seal specialist, 54 x 2mm size. Paid all of $5 for it,

Are Honda parts costs high in NZ? From the Honda dealer its a $2 part here, which makes it about a $3 part in NZ$.

 

[dwalby]

Pete:

I re-read my ST1300 manual last night and they make it sound easy ( Ha !! ). The problem is , there isn't any detail on exactly how to re-assemble and align the camshafts after they are removed. They just say, "Install the camsafts " - cute !! Maybe the technical writer had a hard time understanding the procedure and just left it out.

Timing chains are generally the norm in motorcycle engines, the ST1100 is one of the few exceptions. The alignment procedure for the chains is similar, align the cam marks, align the crank mark, tighten it down and re-install the cam chain tensioner and hope nothing moves. When it does, note the movement and adjust again. I prefer the timing belt to the chains, having done both on various bikes over the decades.

edit: marking the chain/cam gear with a sharpie for re-assembly timing is always a good idea, and I'd typically put the bike in gear and lockup the rear wheel to prevent crank movement also. And, to Jim's comment, I didn't get it the first time, you're saying they don't bother to tell you what the alignment marks look like. Maybe its obvious enough that they assume you'll figure it out?

 

[TerryS]

Are Honda parts costs high in NZ? From the Honda dealer its a $2 part here, which makes it about a $3 part in NZ$.

I've given up on the local dealers, every time I go to buy something, it is always three weeks ex Japan, they carry no local stock. I get cheaper and quicker parts shipped from Partzilla, about 2/3 what I pay locally. If the local dealers held stock I would be prepared to pay a premium for that.

I did not bother pricing the o-ring, was happy to get something off the shelf when I needed it.

 

[MaxPete]

Pete:

I re-read my ST1300 manual last night and they make it sound easy ( Ha !! ). The problem is , there isn't any detail on exactly how to re-assemble and align the camshafts after they are removed. They just say, "Install the camshafts " - cute !! Maybe the technical writer had a hard time understanding the procedure and just left it out.

Hi Jim:

Yup - just like the old Corvair manual that said "Remove engine" as the prelude to nearly every other service task - but they left the engine removal section out of my copy of the '66 manual.......hilarious.

Not that it was actually that tough once I got down to it - but the Chevy Corvair was so different from virtually every other car in those days (air cooled engine, 4-carbs, transaxle/diff in one piece, swing axles, etc. - just like a huge 2.7 litre VW Beetle) that figuring out the logistics of the task was no mean feat, particularly for an over-sexed 16 year old (is there any other kind) with no experience and few tools. That's why I did the Fred Flintstone style starts for more than a year.

Pete

 

[Jim Van]

Pete :

I am familiar with the Corvair's. In H.S. ( not too far across the river from Windsor ) my friend had a '65 Corvair. We put tubular headers and glass packs on it. And I balanced the two carbs with an air flow gauge, I remember. By '65 each rear axle had two u-joints and it cornered pretty good. With the tubular headers, it would top out at 90 mph.

 

[MaxPete]

Pete :

I am familiar with the Corvair's. In H.S. ( not too far across the river from Windsor ) my friend had a '65 Corvair. We put tubular headers and glass packs on it. And I balanced the two carbs with an air flow gauge, I remember. By '65 each rear axle had two u-joints and it cornered pretty good. With the tubular headers, it would top out at 90 mph.

Indeed - I had a '65 coupe and a '66 convertible and as you say, the later suspensions (post-'64) with double-jointed rear axles were MUCH better than the earlier ones. My cars were both Corsa (140 HP) models with 4 speed manuals, bigger valves and high-lift cams, dual exhausts and 4x1bbl carbs (fun to synchronise!) - and were significantly faster than the 110 HP Monza models. It was 1974 and basically, anything with a 4 or 6 cylinder engine and most V8's in larger cars (like Daddy's OldsmoBuicks/Fords etc.) were my lunch meat at the drags.

Anyhow, back to ST1100s.....

Pete

 

[Dirt Road]

Sorry, Dirt [care to share a real name, pls?]. When I wrote that, the last post in the thread was yours (#37). I got started composing that reply and then was distracted for a while before posting, and straight to bed. I did not see your post (#38) with the pictures. Looks 'good to go' to me! Congrats.

John

Ah, I have thus far neglected to share that! My name's Isaac. I just started it up, and it's sounding great. I'm still pretty nervous, but it didn't fry immediately, so that's good.

RE: the Ron majors blow job,
Do I actually have to run the bike with the radiator cap off? "It might burp" is an understatement. It's spewing coolant everywhere. I stuffed a rag over the top, but still turned it back off pretty quickly. Can I just top off the radiator and reserve and put everything back together now?

 

[Dirt Road]

Okay, so I just realized I seriously ****ed up. I'd drained the oil, and when I started it up I forgot to refill it first. it ran for maybe two minutes tops. How ****ed am I?

EDIT: Filled and restarted her. She sounds fine. I'm sure it wasn't good for her, and it'll probably knock a few thousand miles off her life, but she sounds good. Any thoughts out there? At least the timing seems fine!

 

[dwalby]

Okay, so I just realized I seriously ****ed up. I'd drained the oil, and when I started it up I forgot to refill it first. it ran for maybe two minutes tops. How ****ed am I?

only one way to find out, fill it back up with oil and start it up again. Hope that there's no unusual mechanical noise initially, then monitor oil consumption for a while. You're probably going to imagine a lot of phantom noises that "weren't there before". There was a thin film of oil on everything when you started the bike before, cross your fingers and hope that was sufficient to keep things slippery enough for the 2 minutes you ran it. I have no experience with this kind of thing, so no predictions either way from me.