Instability Carrying Top Box

[drtyrrel]

Terrible bikes for hauling anything.

I've seen Harley Chicks a lot heavier than that dirt bike on the back seat.

 

[drtyrrel]

 

[SupraSabre]

In all the 380K miles I have ridden the ST1300s, the only time I have any weave was when I was on a trip, overloaded and I hit around 112mph. When I felt it, I slowed back down and very seldom take it over 90 or so!

 

[spiderman302]

Raymon is also hauling his spare bike on a gravel road.....
It is not a problem since he is running with darkside tires....

I have always had my top box on my bike which I use all time.
never an issue, but then I run low pressure double dark, it changes the equation.....

 

[larryg]

The sticker on the rear rack on the bike states not to load beyond 10 lbs. How much does the topbox weigh?
I had several BMW F-650 single's (Retired from service loaner bikes) and when the small BMW top case was installed on ANY of them, it would change the handling enough to notice by making the front end light and twitchy, and hunt around on the highway, and this was when the cases were completely empty.

OK Larry, Good point...
I've probably never loaded more than 10 lbs in the box anyway - but I don't feel any handling differences with it on and loaded, at normal highway speeds (< 80 mph).

 

[flip-flop]

My topbox turned me into a newt!


I got better....

 

[ad.hom]

After the release of the Coroners Report in April 2007 blaming the ST1300 for the death of PC David Reeves, a Merseyside motor officer, the ST1300

I ride my '02 ST1300A in/around Merseyside. Officers that served with him are always happy to stop & have a chat.

I only ride with the box on for trips, otherwise leave it off. I have never had any noticeable change in handling with the box on.
BUT - I don't (ever) ride 100 mph+. Doing that, box or no box, is just dumb, IMHO.

Most of the difference I feel is probably just me, rather than the bike being different. Though no box does get you bounced around less when there's significant gusting cross wind. I've seen speeds that the report said were more likely to induce the problem, but my A isn't a P spec, so doesn't have the lights/siren etc. And you're right, it probably is dumb.

 

[ST Gui]

There have been a few riders who've attributed some instability to turbulence in the void between the rider and top box as mentioned by OkieRider. Several if not all of those riders seem to have found relief from that instability by filling it with gear so that wind sweeps past the rider and top box before creating any vortices.

Whether or not this contributes to "pan weave" I don't know. I've been a 'weave' on an early Honda years ago and have no wish to repeat it on any bike for any reason.

To that end I've not been too disappointed at not finding an OEM top box (as well as not finding the LED spoiler) and very seldom do 100mph because there's just no real need. Got all that out of my system some time ago on other bikes.

 

[etalors]

The sticker on the rear rack on the bike states not to load beyond 10 lbs. How much does the topbox weigh?
Just weighed mine. The top box weighs about 13 lbs.

 

[etalors]

I have the Honda top box, it's load max is 19.8lbs /9kg.


I only ride with the box on for trips, otherwise leave it off. I have never had any noticeable change in handling with the box on.
BUT - I don't (ever) ride 100 mph+. Doing that, box or no box, is just dumb, IMHO.

Since I have the Laminar Lip on my (stock) windshield I can ride, always, with the windshield all the way down. This gives a big difference in stability, over having it up.
Maybe that's why I don't feel any difference with the box on, I dunno.
And since the Lip directs the breeze up and over my head, I get no wind in my face with the shield down.
I wouldn't ride without it.

Larry, that may be the weight recommendation when the st13 first came out in europe in 2002. Then we got the weave. However as someone pointed out earlier these top boxes were only available in europe therefore the warning label on the mounting plate may have predated the discovery of the pan weave.The mounting plate and top box are made by GIVI (as we all know) and not sold by Honda (as far as I know). While Honda issued a 10 lb recommendation, GIVI probably did not bother to change their label. My top box weighs around 14 lbs. Its the pan european. Another 10 lb would take it to 24-25 lbs or about 11 kg. Still in the park.

 

[Igofar]

Larry, that may be the weight recommendation when the st13 first came out in europe in 2002. Then we got the weave. However as someone pointed out earlier these top boxes were only available in europe therefore the warning label on the mounting plate may have predated the discovery of the pan weave.The mounting plate and top box are made by GIVI (as we all know) and not sold by Honda (as far as I know). While Honda issued a 10 lb recommendation, GIVI probably did not bother to change their label. My top box weighs around 14 lbs. Its the pan european. Another 10 lb would take it to 24-25 lbs or about 11 kg. Still in the park.

I also have the European box on my bike, and have been guilty of packing quite a bit of stuff in there, and have had no issues with handling either.
Givi Makes the European box for Honda.

 

[rogo]

These are Hondas weight limits from my ‘05.

I removed those ridiculous decals on my 1st detail.

 

[Tenknots]

I have a 2005 ST with 17k miles and a factory top case. Twice now with just me and no weight in any cases, I took the bike up to an indicated 110 (probably just over 100) for a few seconds and both time felt the weave - enough for me not to want to hit those speeds again.

 

[Igofar]

I bet I can fix that problem

 

[caldercay]

Yes Pan Weave is well documented, but weave existed since the very first motorcycle and in fact you rarely get high-speed weave without low speed wobble. Motorcycles with approved tyres in good condition run at correct pressures, at normal speeds and loaded within spec will rarely have issues with w and w.

Jump to 4 minutes, 5 seconds in video ... as stated above, wobble and weave predates ST1300

 

[etalors]

Great Info. Thanks for posting. This should clear a lot of myths about the weave and the pan weave. I do experience weave when behind trucks.

 

[Upt' North]

Great Info. Thanks for posting. This should clear a lot of myths about the weave and the pan weave. I do experience weave when behind trucks.

You may be experiencing instability rather than true weave in those conditions. If you've ever had the frame start to hinge on you at high speed you'll know that weave is a lower intestine emptier rather than a "oooh that feels strange moment".
The Mudley Talker video is great and we were shown it on advanced training going back 30 0r 40 years ago.
Upt'North.

 

[mcarver351]

This topic has been covered to death already, but to remain polite about it...

Yes, UK Police felt that the risk of high speed instability, and the health effects on their officers for the ST1300, were simply too great, so they were pulled from service (they now ride BMWs). There was an investigation, where one specific UK Police force worked closely with Honda engineers, a bunch of things were tried, but nothing that resulted in the ST13's remaining in service.

I can't comment on top box availability in the US, but my bike (in the UK) has one, and it is often loaded. Yes, it's away from the CG, yes it makes the bike handle differently (even when it's empty, vs it not being on the bike). But I've gone out of my way trying to find the limit of grip on my tyres, and trying to reproduce the same wobble that the P spec bikes saw.

It turns out, that I'm just as good at reproducing the problem, as Honda are at fixing it (I don't think I saw it, it's much more likely that what I saw was poor tyre pressures and/or a high windscreen while playing in the wake of a big truck).

Everything that was written on the UK wobble came back to one thing and that was the telescoping blue light mounted to the right rear crash bar. We have been operating Honda ST1300's in the states for years but are not required by law as the UK police are to have that telescoping bar. We have all of our radio equipment and electrical components mounted where the rear passenger sits. We have a shotgun/AR/ and baton mounted horizontally and balanced on the center shelf. We have never had a police officer involved accident in the states attributed to a speed wobble on the ST1300.

 

[dduelin]

Everything that was written on the UK wobble came back to one thing and that was the telescoping blue light mounted to the right rear crash bar. We have been operating Honda ST1300's in the states for years but are not required by law as the UK police are to have that telescoping bar. We have all of our radio equipment and electrical components mounted where the rear passenger sits. We have a shotgun/AR/ and baton mounted horizontally and balanced on the center shelf. We have never had a police officer involved accident in the states attributed to a speed wobble on the ST1300.

Did you ever see that video of a group of TX LEOs riding weaving STs in unison down a Texas road? We should try and dig it up. I think there was one out of Japan that was similar.

The weave, it's not a wobble, is real with many civilian STs but it's fairly benign in that it starts gently and only increases in magnitude as the rider continues into speeds up beyond 100-115 mph. It does not come on with a sudden onset and you have to be going pretty fast to experience it, fast enough to go to jail in many jurisdictions. It doesn't suddenly happen out of nowhere and throw the bike out of the rider's control. If the rider is so inclined to explore the weave when it occurs....... the bike can be ridden a little faster, held at that speed, then a little faster, held at that speed then a little faster and so on to see how the weave increases in magnitude with subsequent speed increases to 125+. Lying on the tank does nothing to reduce or eliminate the weave's magnitude. Only speed reduction reduces then eliminates it.

Or so they say. I wouldn't know

 

[mcarver351]

Did you ever see that video of a group of TX LEOs riding weaving STs in unison down a Texas road? We should try and dig it up. I think there was one out of Japan that was similar.

The weave, it's not a wobble, is real with many civilian STs but it's fairly benign in that it starts gently and only increases in magnitude as the rider continues into speeds up beyond 100-115 mph. It does not come on with a sudden onset and you have to be going pretty fast to experience it, fast enough to go to jail in many jurisdictions. It doesn't suddenly happen out of nowhere and throw the bike out of the rider's control. If the rider is so inclined to explore the weave when it occurs....... the bike can be ridden a little faster, held at that speed, then a little faster, held at that speed then a little faster and so on to see how the weave increases in magnitude with subsequent speed increases to 125+. Lying on the tank does nothing to reduce or eliminate the weave's magnitude. Only speed reduction reduces then eliminates it.

Or so they say. I wouldn't know

Interesting. I would like to see how they had their bikes set up and what tires they are running. I will tell you, the stock tires that came on our ST1300's from the factory were horrible on California freeways. We have deep grooves cut into the cement and asphalt. The stock front tire design had those three lines that ran parallel with the freeway lines on the roadway. It made you feel like you were floating across the lane. We instantly changed the tires out and the problem was gone. The original tires were "run flats", which the factory stated you could run them without air and they were not suppose to come off the bead. The replacement tires were not run flats. We go annually to EVOC to use their pursuit course and we have maxed out the throttle for long periods of time and none of us have felt any weave or wobble. Of course this was all done in the interest of training of course.