It Just Keeps Getting Better!!!!!!

Joined
Feb 27, 2011
Messages
3,357
Age
52
Location
Rindge, NH
Bike
2006 ST1300
Regular red StaBil does nothing for ethanol, its simply a product that reduces gummed up carburetors (a problem with storing even before ethanol use). They make a specific marine version for every day use that is supposed to reduce problems associated with ethanol use. I have no idea how effective it is. Also be cautious of any other additives...many gas line antifreezes contain alcohol, and will make matters worse. I used Seafoam in my wife's bike before we stored it. Hopefully it will help some...may not. I know many who use it religiously, and still had rust inside the tanks.

How do we handle it up here? Replace fuel tanks and pumps on a regular basis. As long as we are forced to buy this stuff, we will be dealing with the results. Every mechanic in my area hates ethanol- replacing a rusty tank & rusty lines isn't a pleasant job. Its also tough to convince a customer that their tiny gas leak dripping on the ground is going to cost $1000+ to fix (every connected component is usually just as rusty, and touching one usually means having to replace everything- tank, pump/sender, lines). Some of this rust is external...unavoidable where they spray so much salt on the roads. Some is internal, from the ethanol.

just hope being in a different area now, and using the bike more, the new parts will last much longer.

I'm not a scientist. I'm just the poor guy who has to clean up this stuff. I can't explain why certain vehicles, or certain areas are more prone to problems. I do know that before ethanol use the insides of tanks used to stay very clean, unless someone stored the vehicle for years with an empty tank. We would replace tanks on occasion due to rusting through from the outside. But in the past several years, since ethanol came to the area, the number of tank and line issues simply exploded. If I had to take a guess, I think those issues went up at least 1000%. Instead of doing a couple tanks a year, now its close to a tank a week...and this is at a small shop. Also factor in more tanks are made of plastic now, so the numbers should be dropping, but are actually increasing. The metal tanks just keep coming back. I've installed new steel tanks that have had to be replaced again 3 years later from rusting through from the inside. Pretty bad when you live in a high salt area, and the outside of the tank is still clean metal, and the inside looks like Mick's photos.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Feb 11, 2006
Messages
1,101
Location
Bloomington, MN
STOC #
273
Not a fan of ethanol, but having run it in all our vehicles for almost 30 years (Minnesota was one of the first to mandate it) I have never seen E10 damage seals or rust a tank. I know it's bad for pre-1980 materials but I can't buy that E10 was a PRIMARY cause of Mick's horrible deterioration. Maybe it reacted with something or was left in a near empty tank (leading it to be a secondary cause.) I've even pulled a tank off a connie that sat for three years and it still wasn't rusted inside (but the gas did turn green.)
 

sbond22

'06 ST1300A The DarkeST color
Joined
Dec 28, 2007
Messages
449
Location
Grove City, Fl
Bike
'06 ST1300A
I bought an '06 with 356 miles on it in 2009. It was sold new 3 years to the month before I bought it. I don't know what kind of gas it sat with all those years ( it was trailered from Utah ) but it now has 8600 miles on it and I've never had a problem.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jul 20, 2006
Messages
44
Location
Milwaukee, WI
Bike
ST1300
There is enough evidence from mechanics around the country reporting that they are replacing gas tanks, fuel pumps and injectors at a much higher rate than ever before, to support the claims of damages from E10.
However, motorcycle gas tanks getting rusted has always been a problem, that predates ethanol in gasoline.
I have experienced it several times on Honda's I owned in '71 and '75.
My brother had the same thing happen on his bike in '68.
My uncle told me stories of the same thing happening to his Harley, after winter storage in 1956.
All of these incidents predate ethanol in gasoline.
My CB350 and CB550 both developed rusty tanks after just a couple of winters in a row, when I stored the bikes with the gas tank at low level.
Leaving air in the tanks for even a few months starts the process, and if you repeat the same storage mistake a year later, and a year after that, you wind up with a tank full of mush.
As soon as I saw Mick's fuel pump I knew that his tank would have rust, based on my experience.
After having this happen to me on two different cycles, I finally wised up and now I never store the bike without a full tank.
 

MrB

Joined
Oct 27, 2012
Messages
122
Location
Columbia, Illinois
Bike
2013 GL1800 F6B
STOC #
8791
After having this happen to me on two different cycles, I finally wised up and now I never store the bike without a full tank.
+1
I have a 1966 Cub Cadet lawn tractor, bought 10 years ago, don't know if the tank was original but it was old. 10 years of e10 and it looks great. I'll post a pic later. It gets used for mowing only and sits there with gas in the tank the rest of the year. I store it in an unattached garage with a full tank at the end of mowing season, looks fine.
Pulled the fuel pump on my '89 S10 a few years ago, it had a patina, but nothing like Mick's craziness. Nothing but E10.
Anecdotal, but if E10 was that horrible there should be predictability.
There are other variables here that may or may not include temp, humidity, frequency of top-off, etc, etc.
I'm not disputing that people are replacing tanks, but the argument against E10 isn't working in every case. Perhaps a pattern will appear that will guide us with usage and storage. May have no effects on daily drivers that fill up once a week and live in low humidity areas or some other variable.
Mick, thanks for posting that link. While I'm not sold on E10 damaging my bike, there's no reason to not remove potential risk factors when, (IF), I put it away for the winter
.image.jpg
 

Attachments

Last edited:
Joined
Feb 11, 2006
Messages
1,101
Location
Bloomington, MN
STOC #
273
Seems to be no shortage of information about rust and magnetic attraction on Google. It's not always a given that rust will be attracted to a magnet (it actually sounds like regular steel rust is not.)
 

Scooter

This space for rent...
Joined
Oct 12, 2005
Messages
1,778
Location
Germantown, WI
Bike
2019 BMW R1250RT
STOC #
5929
In your spare time you can brush up on your automotive fuels here. Chapter 3 & 4 are of particular interest here.
 
Joined
Feb 27, 2011
Messages
3,357
Age
52
Location
Rindge, NH
Bike
2006 ST1300
Interesting reading. Some parts from it:

"Ethanol is located at the gasoline terminal or refinery loading rack
and is metered into the gasoline to achieve an exact blend. At
present, blends exceeding 10 v% ethanol are not permitted by
law for use in non Flex-Fuel Vehicles."

Many reports I've read have found the actual ethanol content to vary widely, with up to 25% found at gas pumps.

"Ethanol is approximately
35% oxygen so a 10 v% blend would contain approximately
3.5 weight percent (w%) oxygen which improves combustion
properties."

It also allows a full tank of fuel to rust the inside of a tank or line once moisture is absorbed by the ethanol. Water + oxygen = rust.

" Vehicle fuel tanks and fuel system components
from vehicles operated for extended periods on these blends
were removed, cut open, and examined. These tests have
generally concluded that ethanol does not increase corrosion in normal, everyday operation."

Have they tested tanks and lines of vehicles which sit for an extended period of time? How about the tanks from the vehicles that have gotten an extra high amount of ethanol? Or in more humid areas, where more moisture might be picked up?

"Auto manufacturers have indicated they do not have
major concerns about metal corrosion, provided that all fuels
contain effective corrosion inhibitors at the proper treatment
levels"

If they don't rust within the warranty period of the vehicle, they won't care what happens after. And I've replaced several tanks that rusted from the inside while the vehicle was still under warranty when I worked at the GM dealership. Fortunately most modern automotive tanks are plastic, as are the sending units, and the pumps are stainless steel.

"All major automobile manufacturers have indicated that their
late model vehicles are equipped with fuel system components upgraded for use with these fuels."

While they won't dissolve in ethanol like many small equipment parts can, they still clog up when the fuel gets a little bit old. At the last dealer I worked at, many cars were purchased at auction, then would sit around until we could prep them. Many sat for up to a year total. About 1/4 of these vehicles had to have the entire fuel system drained & flushed to get them running. This included pulling injectors, replacing filters, cleaning out tanks, and flushing the lines & fuel rail. Ethanol contamination is easy to spot- its a cloudy orange color, even in plastic tanks where there is no metal to rust and discolor the fuel. When it gets really bad, there will be an orange jelly like substance on the bottom of the fuel tank & carb float bowls.
 

dr1954

Rick
Joined
Sep 21, 2006
Messages
415
Age
70
Location
Waterloo, Illinois
Bike
=6= F800gs
I say we do an unscientific study of our own.

Find some old mason jars and fill them half full of:

#1 Pure gasoline

#2 E10

#3 E85

Drop a steel bolt or whatever in each one and screw the cap on tight. Set them somewhere there is temp and humidity changes and just observe.
 

BakerBoy

It's all small stuff.
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
5,446
Location
Golden, Colorado
STOC #
1408
I say we do an unscientific study of our own.

Find some old mason jars and fill them half full of:

#1 Pure gasoline

#2 E10

#3 E85

Drop a steel bolt or whatever in each one and screw the cap on tight. Set them somewhere there is temp and humidity changes and just observe.
Good idea...need to vent the lid and suspend the bolt half in and half out of the fuel.
 

dr1954

Rick
Joined
Sep 21, 2006
Messages
415
Age
70
Location
Waterloo, Illinois
Bike
=6= F800gs
Maybe a long bolt that reaches all the way to the bottom since all the bad stuff is supposed to settle?
 
Joined
Mar 16, 2008
Messages
308
Location
Brakpan, South Africa
Bike
2004 ST1300ABS
STOC #
7481
^^^^^^^^^
You must wear two pair of blindfolds so that it will be a true double blind test.:rofl1:
Ha-haha... well said!!

Interesting Thread.

Maybe a good tip for all of us is to keep all our fuel tanks above half full and full if at all possible..and especially when leaving the bike/ car standing for a while , obviously except for storage, then I'd opt for emptying and putting some type of rust inhibitor ( depends on the length of storage time)
 
Last edited:

RCS

Joined
Jul 3, 2008
Messages
1,401
Location
Stamford, CT
I read your threads on this subject with great interest - since I purchased my 2004 in 2008 with only 1,200 miles on it.

Best I can figure is that over time of non use the gasoline in the lower tank evaporated. Since the lower tank is not as ventilated as the upper tank it became a virtually closed terrarium - its own little humidity zone where some water maybe in the bottom of the secondary tank started to evaporate and could not vent quickly enough. That evaporating water condensed on the fuel pump and facilitated the rust.
 
OP
OP
Mick
Joined
Dec 12, 2004
Messages
1,282
Age
76
Location
Weatherford, TX
Bike
'16 Versys 650LT
STOC #
1134
CAN YOU SAY FLOOD WATER
You could if there had been any other sign of it but there was absolutely no indication of the bike ever having been in flood water. All of the rust in that tank was the result of chemical action that took place WITHIN the take itself.

The damaged tank bore all the earmarks of phase separation in ethanol laden gasoline after having sat for a LONG time. Below is from a site that discusses gasoline storage. Though the scale is different, the principle is the same. Take a tank with some moisture laded air in it, add ethanol laden gasoline that sits for a long time and the below might be a picture of what happened:

From: http://www.tanknology.co.uk/tanknolo.../biofuels.html

"The largest concern to bio-ethanol is water. Ethanol and water are simply not compatible. It takes a small amount of water to cause what is known as “phase separation”.


biofuels_clip_image001.gif


When water does contaminate ethanol blended fuel, the water dissolves into the ethanol and disperses throughout the tank. Once it exceeds its maximum tolerance, the alcohol/water mixture will separate from the fuel. As little as 50mm of water in a 38,000 litre tank can start phase separation."

Ethanol is bad stuff and should not be allowed in our tanks.
 
Last edited:

okckeith

Site Supporter
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
3,400
Age
60
Location
Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
Bike
2017 Triumph Trophy
Ethanol is bad stuff and should not be allowed in our tanks.
:plus1: One of the only good things about living here in Oklahoma is that I can still get real gas. I only run ethanol when I travel. Then I make sure it is out of what ever I drive or ride before I park it.
When you get this taken care of, you will have a very good low mileage bike. It will all be worth it.
 
Top Bottom