Keep hearing this synthetic stuff

[T_C]

I keep hearing phrases about using synthetic oil. "We need to quit digging up dead dino's and use full synthetic oil."

All the engine oils are still made from dead dinosaurs. Full synthetic is just a marketing term. Synthetic oil can be a better refined version of crude, but it all starts with the same stuff.

Just had to say it. I'm sure it'll be a storm from here.

 

[bdalameda]

Here are a couple of references to synthetic oils. The term synthetic is used for a wide range of lubricants. Some synthetic branded oils really push it as they really are more refined petroleum oils, others are truly synthetic made from alchohol or other fatty acids.

Synthetic lubricants can be manufactured using chemically modified petroleum components rather than whole crude oil, but can also be synthesized from other raw materials.

Poly-alpha-olefin (poly-α-olefin, PAO) is a polymer made by polymerizing an alpha-olefin. They are designated at API Group IV and are a 100% synthetic chemical compound. It is a specific type of olefin (organic) that is used as a base stock in the production of some synthetic lubricants. An alpha-olefin (or α-olefin) is an alkene where the carbon-carbon double bond starts at the α-carbon atom, i.e. the double bond is between the #1 and #2 carbons in the molecule.[5]

Esters are the most famous synthetics in Group V, which are 100% synthetic chemical compounds consisting of a carbonyl adjacent to an ether linkage. They are derived by reacting an oxoacid with a hydroxyl compound such as an alcohol or phenol. Esters are usually derived from an inorganic acid or organic acid in which at least one -OH (hydroxyl) group is replaced by an -O-alkyl (alkoxy) group, most commonly from carboxylic acids and alcohols. That is to say, esters are formed by condensing an acid with an alcohol.

 

[Nashcat]

Thanks for clearing that up.

John

 

[red one]

I'll even expand it a little further by saying that the difference between the non synethic and synthetic is getting smaller and smaller all the time. And this is due to the additive packages that they use in both flavors of oil. I always found it funny that years ago Pennzoil was offering 300K mileage warranties on oil related failure of engine parts. Now here is the funny part....both synthetic and non synthetic had the same exact warranty.

 

[T_C]

As uou say can be synthesized from non-organic sources (crude oil is 100% organic), but can be and must be are very different terms. There is nothing saying it must be, and in today's chemical wirld, what something was can be radically different from what it becomes. Look at rayon being marketed as made from bamboo.

Somewhere around 2000 the term full synthetic was found to apply to highly refined mineral oil. Thus making the term just a piece of marketing, not legally binding or a standard.

Easiest way to learn what your oil is, look at the MSDS.

 

[T_C]

The debate circles around defining synthetic. Straight forward definition: it is what is not found in nature, ie man made. Highly refined mineral oil is not found in nature, it is only found when man kind produces it with modern technology.

This is the argument the marketing department and lawyers use. Exactly why API and SAE are staying out if this and not defining a standard for the term, they legally can't.

 

[dr1954]

I'm sure someone is going to pipe up and recommend that we should regularly drain and change our oil. Be it synthetic or not.

 

[Morguns1cam]

I recently read somewhere that the only true synthetic oils on the market are Amsoil and Mobil One.

 

[bdalameda]

I recently read somewhere that the only true synthetic oils on the market are Amsoil and Mobil One.

There are quite a few more - you have to find out was the base oil is - chances are if it a Group IV or V it is a pure synthetic. Maxima, Motul, Klotz, Redline just to name a few are real synthetics. In Europe many oils that are marketed in the US as synthetics cannot be sold there with the same formulations so in Europe they are formulated with true synthetic base stocks like PAO and sold under the same name but the US oil is different than the European oil with the same name. I found this out recently when I purchased a new Volvo for my wife. The recommended Castrol Edge oil in Europe meets the spec from Volvo but the US Castrol Edge does not meet the spec. The two oils are different formulations. Amzoil will not publish what their base stocks are and some labs have confirmed that many Amzoil lubricants are made from Group III highly refined petroleum bases. Does not mean they are bad oils but it doesn't quite match the marketing hype. Oil additives can make these petroleum oils perform similarly to synthetics but the true ester and particularly the polyol ester synthetics do not require as many additives because they are naturally multigrade and very clean running without needing detergents etc. and very heat resistant. I believe there are only a couple of true polyol ester oils on the market, Redline, Maxima and Motul make them. Polyol ester oils are used in jet turbine engines and some very cold operating refrigeration compressors due to their temperature stability both at extremely high temperatures and very low temperatures. Where I work we have literally hundreds of 250 to 500 horsepower rotary screw ammonia refrigeration compressors. Liquid ammonia boils at minus 28 deg. F and these oils though often flooded with liquid ammonia are considered an almost permanent lubricant.

 

[T_C]

I recently read somewhere that the only true synthetic oils on the market are Amsoil and Mobil One.

Pulled the MSDS for Mobil1, see attached.

DISTILLATES, HEAVY, C18-50 - BRANCHED, CYCLIC AND LINEAR, 40-<70%

So not exactly crude oil, but made from coal and/or natural gas. Still natural resources, dead dinosaurs and their associated biomass.

 

[GGely]

For what it’s worth, I like to wait till my Acadia needs an oil change and then reuse that oil in the ST. So that’s every 25 to 30,000km or around 15,000 miles on the Acadia. Not sure what the oil change place uses but it’s $9.95 for an oil and filter change, so it must be the good stuff.

Between changes, I top the ST up with what we drain from the deep fryer.

Now, let’s see what a real oil thread looks like...

 

[ST Gui]

Between changes, I top the ST up with what we drain from the deep fryer.

 

[peterz]

I keep hearing phrases about using synthetic oil. "We need to quit digging up dead dino's and use full synthetic oil."

All the engine oils are still made from dead dinosaurs. Full synthetic is just a marketing term. Synthetic oil can be a better refined version of crude, but it all starts with the same stuff.

Just had to say it. I'm sure it'll be a storm from here.

You just had to get these guys going again didn't you !!

 

[sky.high]

For what it’s worth, I like to wait till my Acadia needs an oil change and then reuse that oil in the ST. So that’s every 25 to 30,000km or around 15,000 miles on the Acadia. Not sure what the oil change place uses but it’s $9.95 for an oil and filter change, so it must be the good stuff.

Between changes, I top the ST up with what we drain from the deep fryer.

Now, let’s see what a real oil thread looks like...

Does it make your ST smell like KFC, is that the up side?

 

[ST Gui]

The bucket is empty and I'm not feeling like a refill.

 

[Shawn K]

For what it’s worth, I like to wait till my Acadia needs an oil change and then reuse that oil in the ST. So that’s every 25 to 30,000km or around 15,000 miles on the Acadia.

Are you serious? You put 15,000 mile-old used engine oil in your ST?

 

[GGely]

Does it make your ST smell like KFC, is that the up side?

Here in Canada, we use deep fryers for fish and donuts...

 

[sky.high]

Here in Canada, we use deep fryers for fish and donuts...

Hang on I thought I was in Canada, oh no that's right I'm in Alberta feels like a totally different place these days

 

[GGely]

Lol, my bad, I thought I was quoting one of our friends from below the 49th! Calgary is definitely in my Canada!

And now, before this turns in a direction non of us want it to, for something completely different...

MONTY PYTHON’S FLYING CIRCUS!

 

[docw1]

Here are a couple of references to synthetic oils. The term synthetic is used for a wide range of lubricants. Some synthetic branded oils really push it as they really are more refined petroleum oils, others are truly synthetic made from alchohol or other fatty acids.

Synthetic lubricants can be manufactured using chemically modified petroleum components rather than whole crude oil, but can also be synthesized from other raw materials.

Poly-alpha-olefin (poly-α-olefin, PAO) is a polymer made by polymerizing an alpha-olefin. They are designated at API Group IV and are a 100% synthetic chemical compound. It is a specific type of olefin (organic) that is used as a base stock in the production of some synthetic lubricants. An alpha-olefin (or α-olefin) is an alkene where the carbon-carbon double bond starts at the α-carbon atom, i.e. the double bond is between the #1 and #2 carbons in the molecule.[5]

Esters are the most famous synthetics in Group V, which are 100% synthetic chemical compounds consisting of a carbonyl adjacent to an ether linkage. They are derived by reacting an oxoacid with a hydroxyl compound such as an alcohol or phenol. Esters are usually derived from an inorganic acid or organic acid in which at least one -OH (hydroxyl) group is replaced by an -O-alkyl (alkoxy) group, most commonly from carboxylic acids and alcohols. That is to say, esters are formed by condensing an acid with an alcohol.

So, is there a practical difference in our engines between these two base stocks, such that we should look for one and not the other?