linked brake removal

[cupidstunt]

I'm wanting to bypass the linked brakes/abs, and have 2 questions I can't find.

1. Are there kits out there to join the 3 pistons together on each caliper(join 2 banjo's)

2. will this affect the tcs in any way?

Sick of trying to sory the abs/ rear wheel dragging issues...

 

[Sadlsor]

As I own the 1300, I was unaware the 1100 had Traction Control.
As for the first question, have you looked at other calipers? Seems that would be easier.

 

[SMSW]

There was a very similar post recently - same question. No kits out there. Bottom line from the last post is it will be expensive to do this - you will need custom made brake lines, and will have to modify both the brake and electrical system.
Do a search for that other thread.

All you need to do is routine maintenance once you get the bike sorted out. It is pretty much a lack thereof that causes brake problems in the first place. More than a few guys here have gone years and major miles w/o brake problems if they maintain their bikes.

No disrespect intended, but if you tend to ignore routine maintenance this might not be the bike for you. ST's can be remarkably trouble free....or a real pita if not maintained.

 

[sirbike]

What is the motivation for delinking?
I can think of a few but it would be easier to answer if the reason for it is put forward.

 

[Uncle Phil]

Pretty simple as I put the ABSII calipers on a ST1100 standard.
The issue is you've got to have a 'three way' union if you want to fire the center piston on the front ones when you fire the other ones.
You'll need a line that runs from one side to the other with a single connection. Then you run the 'normal' front line to one side of the t, the 'new' line to the other side and the line to the front master cylinder to the last side.
Looks something like this -



On the back you just have to run a brake line from the center piston to the second port on the rear master cylinder after you disconnect the line from the front.
Or you could just plug the center inlet port on all of the calipers, making sure all the fluid is out of them first.

 

[cupidstunt]

Thx uncle phil, thinking its not overly complicated, though technically I already have the cross over line in situ.
I actually managed to remove the abs on a bmw K1100 with no extra hoses or connectors...

SMSW, I have spent "hours" so far on this new to me bike.
I replaced a rusty swing arm, cleaned and balanced carbs, changed fork seals, removed broken studs etc, and just today, out of the blue the rear wheel was stuck, so spent hours again reading this forum, and removed cleaned caliper, rear master cylinder, and still sticking....
The next port of call is the smc, but will that be it?
I don't think so.

I already owned a non abs a few years ago, and it was a joy. But abs that doesn't work, linked brakes that annoy a seasoned rider, and contribute to a rear seized caliper... removal is the best option IMO.

 

[SMSW]

The next port of call is the smc, but will that be it?

I apologize, I did not notice you have an 1100. IIRC, the previous post was for a 1300.

A rear brake dragging is most often due to a bad SMC, but this is easy to diagnose.

 

[cupidstunt]

I apologize, I did not notice you have an 1100. IIRC, the previous post was for a 1300.

A rear brake dragging is most often due to a bad SMC, but this is easy to diagnose.

All helpful, as the ABS II ST1100 is very similar to the 1300...
How is bad smc detected?
relieve pressure with spanner on rear caliper, then see if either brake locks rear wheel?

 

[Uncle Phil]

A thing to check is the condition of the pistons in the rear caliper.
If they are corroded, they will not 'return' into the caliper when the brake is released.
IIRC, the SMC only 'fires' the center piston so your 'drag' could be the main pistons - not the linked piston.
Also, check the condition of the 'slider' pins in the caliper - if they are cruded up they can cause an issue.
Also, the pin that the pads slide on will not 'release' the pads if it is cruded up.
A hint - if you remove the 'big' pin (it's a hex head - don't remember the size -12 or 14 IIRC) you can easily remove the caliper 'hanger'.
This will give you a clear view of the pistons and easy access to see how much pressure it takes to push each one back in.
I always do that when replacing the pads so I can clean the pistons before I push them back in and clean and lube the slider pins with brake lube.

 

[Upt' North]

I wouldn't worry too much about the TCS, 300 KG of bike and 100 bhp take care of that on their own. But whether or not the control unit will disable the TCS when it detects the ABS fault is a good question and someone may have the answer. I suspect you'll be running without TCS.
If you've done it on a K11 you'll do it on this too, Uncle Phil as obviously done it, sort of, by upgrading to ABSll calipers on the earlier bike. Their may be an issue with the master cylinder size too once de-linked but ebay will provide what's required I'm sure.
I personally wouldn't want to try and maintain an ABS system on a bike of that age and it's testimony to Honda build quality that so many are still running the ABS after 30 years, most K's of that age have long since become non ABS.
If you're going for the non linked set up the SMC is not an issue, although it does sound as though that may be the problem. This doesn't normally seem to be a problem on 11's but the 13 owners are constantly either fighting with them or maintaining them. I'm sure someone somewhere hasn't touched the SMC in 20 years on a ST13 and it's running sweet, but, more will be bitching about them.
I have no knowledge about the SMC on the 11, my 98 was not an A model, but it is just a master cylinder automatically operated by rotational braking forces on the front caliper. It's simple but flawed.
Most here will probably say it's just a maintenance issue, but going forward the parts will become unavailable and expensive, do it now and save yourself more bills down the line and hopefully an easier to maintain bike.
From an operational point of view I prefer a separate rear brake, it probably comes from riding off road and the crappy shitty roads in the UK.
Good luck.
Upt.

 

[SMSW]

SMC problems are easy to diagnose if the rest of the brake system is up to snuff. As Phil said, you need to make sure the rear caliper's pistons are not dirty or corroded and refusing to retract. Once the rear wheel spins freely, with the bike on the center stand, lie along side it, and give the rear wheel a spin with your foot. Move the front caliper/SMC as if the wheel is turning with your hand and this should stop the rear wheel. After releasing the SMC, the rear wheel should again spin freely if ports are not blocked and the brake fluid returns in the lines. If not, loosen the bleed nipple for the center piston as you said. If the rear wheel spins, the tiny return port in the SMC is probably plugged.

Note the first thing I said. Other problems in the brake system can mask SMC issues or make diagnosis difficult.

Have you read this? There are also other articles in the 1300 section of Articles in the blue band atop this page.

Article [11] - ST1100 - ABS Fault Finding | ST1100 Articles

Diagnosing a fault reported by the ECU on a Honda ST1100AY. ABSII ABS/CBS/TCS This information is taken from my own website - I wrote it up at the time - I am just revisiting it 13 years later. ABS The ABS is brilliant - it works. It gives a pulsing sensation through the brake levers -...

www.st-owners.com

 

[Slydynbye]

Had a similiar problem.
You might also check the proportional control valve on the right side of the bike. I had one that was somehow stuck, replaced with one from eebay, solved the problem for me. I opened up the old one (it's a pretty simple device) couldn't see an obvious problem. It might have been some debris locking it up.
You can test to see if it is the problem by cracking the fittings to release pressure on it.

 

[cupidstunt]

re stripped rear brakes again, some tiny nicks in 2 pistons, so ordered new. will install this w/e and check all again...
Many thanks for all the pointers.

 

[Larry Fine]

You can glean some useful info about sticking brakes by comparing inside vs outside pad wear.

 

[cupidstunt]

Changed caliper seals and pistons (nice shiny stainless steel ones!)
All good so for, and will test drive tomorrow.
If, the smc rears its head in the future, where is best place to purchase? I heard a twin pack for the gl1800 is only about 50$ and the same?
Also, where to buy wheel speed sensor? or is their a resistance reading to test them? Having a code 2...

 

[Andrew Shadow]

SMC failures on the ST1100 are uncommon. Perform the normal braking system inspections and tests to determine that the SMC is the problem before proceeding, unless your goal is to get rid of the linked brakes regardless of whether they function correctly or not.

If the ABS is disabled or otherwise rendered inoperative the TCS will not function. The determination of whether or not the TCS needs to intervene comes from the ABS wheel sensors reporting a difference in rotational speeds between the front and rear wheels that are outside of the limits of what was programmed as acceptable, the same as is done with the ABS braking system. If the ABS is not functioning and can not read the inputs from the wheel sensors there is nothing telling the TCS to intervene.

 

[Uncle Phil]

Also, where to buy wheel speed sensor? or is their a resistance reading to test them? Having a code 2...

The ABS sensors (front and rear are the same) from Honda are now made of 'unobtanium'.
There used to be a company over in the UK called HappyBiker.com that made 'replacements' but it appears their website is dead.
Here's one solution that seems to work -

(2) Article [11] - ST1100 - Broken Front ABS Sensor Replacement Clone from Alliexpress | ST1100 Articles | ST-Owners.com

 

[Ron]

The ABS II sensors ('96+ years) are the same front and back. The difference is the length of cable and the connecting plug color is what I was told. The ABS/TCS are separate systems other than the sensors. The ABS operates pumps to change the braking by the calipers. The TCS changes the timing on the motor.

 

[Uncle Phil]

The ABS II sensors ('96+ years) are the same front and back. The difference is the length of cable and the connecting plug color is what I was told.

That is correct - the rear plug is white, the front plug is black and only the wire length (3 wires) is different.

 

[jfheath]

The article on bleeding the brakes for the 1300, and the article on avoiding the pitfalls with the 1300 brakes are both very relevant to the ST1100 ABS/CBS/TCS. I'll add the links at the bottom.

The big difference is the SMC. On the 1100, the SMC looks very much like the rear master cylinder, positioned vertically, so there is no need to tilt it when bleeding like there is with the 1300.

But the 1300 has a couple of components which are hidden away from the casual observer..

One is a three pivot linkage. It is fastened to the master cylinder, to the fork leg and to the caliper. When the brake grabs the left brake disk, the caliper wants to move along with the disk. The 3 pivot linkage converts this movement into an upward push of the secondary master cylinder.
Anyone reading this after a search for 'SMC' - I am talking here about the ST 1100.

Back to the plot. That linkage is in direct line of fire of 24 years of road muck and grime and if you live here in Yorkshire, cattle poo.
It is hidden out of sight behind that grey ABS shield attached to the mudguard and the (pink) plates get corroded, so do the pivots. And when was the last time you checked/greased those bearings ??

There are also pivot points in the fork legs brackets. I can't remember what they are. But they need checking. If these pivots cannot move, your brakes will not operate properly, and they certainly will not release as they should.

Those links for the similar ST1300

Article [13] - ST1300 Maintenance - Getting all the air out of the brake system | ST1300 Articles

A detailed look at the process of getting the air out of the Honda ST1300 brake lines. A sequence of diagrams of the brake circuits, colour coded to show which parts of the system are being accessed when each bleed valve is opened and explanations of where the trouble spots are. These are just...

www.st-owners.com

Article [13] - ST1300 Maintenance - Brakes- Avoiding the Pitfalls | ST1300 Articles

A close hands-on look at the Honda ST1300 braking system. These are personal observations about the things that can go wrong, why they go wrong and what can be done to keep things working sweetly. Updated April 2020 and to address more recent observations, to include information about the SMC...

www.st-owners.com

TCS. The hydraulics have zero effect on the TCS.

If active, the TCS kicks in if it detects that the two wheels are spinning at different speeds or if the rear wheel is going faster than the front. It will then cut power to the engine - I think by cutting the LT power to one of the coils. Not to sure about that - its been 17 years since I sold my 1100, but I do know that how it does it is described in the manual - if not on a link that @SMSW provided in Post #11 - I wrote that about 18 years ago - odd to see it pop up again !

[Edit] No. It retards the ignition. See @Andrew Shadow's correction further down.

If the ABS sensors aren't working, then the system will not arm, but you may want to turn it off, because having TCS kick in at odd times is really not a pleasant experience.