M77 Replaces Moly 60- Apparently So

[Andrew Shadow]

There have been several discussions regarding the replacement of the discontinued Moly 60 paste. As I need some spline lubricant I wanted to know what Honda had to say on this issue. I went to my local Honda motorcycle dealer and asked for Moly 60 paste Honda P/N 08734-0001 knowing that it had been discontinued. The Honda parts computer system clearly tells them that M77 Honda P/N 08798-9010CH replaces Moly 60 but provides no further details. So I went to the service department and asked them if there was any documentation that supported this migration from Moly 60 to M77 for lubricating final drive splines. After searching their technical data base, they found Honda Canada Shop Talk issue 5-15 dated July 2015. Honda Canada Shop Talk is an internal publication Honda Canada uses to disseminate information to their Honda motorcycle service departments. This document states that M77 replaces Moly 60. It also states that M77 is to be used where ever Moly 60 is called for in the service manual. This is the only reference to this change that they could find. I have attached a copy of the relevant page herein.

UPDATE:
Because I do not want to lead anyone astray and in an effort to hopefully not disseminate incorrect information I thought that I should add an update to this thread. The below information is to clarify that there seems to be different versions of the Moly 60 replacement being sold by Honda in different markets. The Moly 77 that is being sold in Canada and the US appears to be two different products. To the best of my knowledge the below is what is being sold. I hope that this is accurate but checking with your Honda dealer of choice would be the best course of action before buying/using this product

In Canada the replacement for Moly 60 that is being sold is called Moly 77 Grease. It is Honda Canada PN 08798-9010CH. This product is manufactured by PolySi Technologies for Honda Canada. This manufacturer lists this product as being between 60 and 70% molybdenum disulfide (MSo2).
It is sold in a white tube as pictured below;


What Honda America sells as the replacement for Moly 60 is called M-77 Assembly Paste. This product is Honda America PN 08798-9010 (no CH suffix). I don't have a data sheet for it so I don't have the MSo2 content.
I believe that it is sold in a red and white tube as pictured below;


Canadian Honda dealer's parts computer systems only recognize P/N 08798-9010CH (with the CH suffix) and do not recognize and cannot order P/N 08798-9010 (without the CH suffix).
American Honda dealer's parts computer systems only recognize P/N 08798-9010 (without the CH suffix) and do not recognize and cannot order P/N 08798-9010CH (with the CH suffix).
Whether or not these two products are the very same chemical that is simply being marketed differently in the two countries is unknown to me.

Thank you to Dave (dduelin) for making the effort to contact Honda in both countries to find out about the existence of the two part numbers and the discrepancy between them- see here.

 

[Dave.David]

I've known lots of mechanics who simply use "Disc brake 'high temp' grease" on things like these rear diff spline or caliper slides/bolts, or axle and bearing grease and etc. Can anyone tell me the short simple answer to tell these guys why this is a bad idea?
I happen to know it's wrong but I don't know why. Thank you, Dave.

 

[Bush]

I've known lots of mechanics who simply use "Disc brake 'high temp' grease" on things like these rear diff spline or caliper slides/bolts, or axle and bearing grease and etc. Can anyone tell me the short simple answer to tell these guys why this is a bad idea?
I happen to know it's wrong but I don't know why. Thank you, Dave.

As I understand it, the main ingredient we value in the Moly 60 is the molybdenum disulphide, which has incredibly high strength against dispersion - e.g. being forced away from the surface it protects - under extremely high pressures, as is found on those gear teeth in our final drives. As in, able to withstand hundreds of thousands of pounds of metal on metal pressure. These forces would never be seen in brake components.

I would add that the moly particles are so small that they actually bond with the surfaces to protect them and that is also why it is virtually impossible to wash it off your skin, should you get it on yourself.

 

[Upt' North]

You know you've started something here don't you Mr.Shadow.
:BDH:
Upt'North.

 

[Soontobeone]

According to Honda, that is correct. However, M77 does not meet Honda's own service requirement of more than 40% molybdenum disulfide paste, on the final gear case splines (page 16-12 of the Service Manual). Use at your own risk.

This is a better substitute, in my opinion, for Honda Moly 60: Loctite LB 8012 Paste Anti-Seize Lubricant. It contains 65% MoS2 (molybdenum disulfide).
https://www.rshughes.com/p/Loctite-LB-8012-Paste-Anti-Seize-Lubricant-8-Oz-Can-Formerly-Known-As-Loctite-Moly-Paste-51048/079340_51048/

 

[vinny]

M77 Honda P/N 08798-9010CH replaces Moly 60

Ohh, did I mention I have some land for sale in....

I think you will be sadly mistaken to use M77 on your splines.

 

[SMSW]

I've known lots of mechanics who simply use "Disc brake 'high temp' grease" on things like these rear diff spline or caliper slides/bolts, or axle and bearing grease and etc. Can anyone tell me the short simple answer to tell these guys why this is a bad idea?
I happen to know it's wrong but I don't know why. Thank you, Dave.

The simple answer, which will not satisfy them, is that the brake grease does not meet Honda's recommendations or specifications for lubing the splines. A more complicated answer is what Bush said.

The truth of the matter will probably never be known - is the old moly paste required or can one use moly grease (with a lower MoS2 content) or even heavy duty chassis grease? We now have documentation that Honda (at least the child Honda Canada, if not Mother Honda) has changed the specs and says the reduced moly content M-77 can be used. And at least one poster has said in another thread that he has used heavy duty* chassis grease to regularly lube the splines with no visible wear.

Who is right? So many questions...so little time.... YMMV

*I love this description: heavy duty Maybe another thread discussing what it means?

 

[Oldbikefixr]

I have been riding Hondas with rear drive hubs since 1991. Those of us who cleaned the drive splines and relubed with Honda moly paste never had a problem with spline wear. The only failed splines I ever saw among the GLwhatever crowd was among those who did not clean and relube at tire changes. That aside...some owners used other greases although they were moly based such as Belray Assembly lube. They never admitted to a failure either.
From my experience, the recommended lube is best. The wrong lube is better than none at all.

 

[Andrew Shadow]

Ohh, did I mention I have some land for sale in....

I think you will be sadly mistaken to use M77 on your splines.

I didn't say that I blindly believed it. I am only passing on the information that I obtained. Now where would that land be?

 

[Igofar]

There have been several discussions regarding the replacement of the discontinued Moly 60 paste. As I need some spline lubricant I wanted to know what Honda had to say on this issue. I went to my local Honda motorcycle dealer and asked for Moly 60 paste Honda P/N 08734-0001 knowing that it had been discontinued. The Honda parts computer system clearly tells them that M77 Honda P/N 08798-9010CH replaces Moly 60 but provides no further details. So I went to the service department and asked them if there was any documentation that supported this migration from Moly 60 to M77 for lubricating final drive splines. After searching their technical data base, they found Honda Canada Shop Talk issue 5-15 dated July 2015. Honda Canada Shop Talk is an internal publication Honda Canada uses to disseminate information to their Honda motorcycle service departments. This document states that M77 replaces Moly 60. It also states that M77 is to be used where ever Moly 60 is called for in the service manual. This is the only reference to this change that they could find. I have attached a copy of the relevant page herein.

There you have it in their own words......"This product should be used whenever the service manual recommends applying molybdenum disulfide grease".
If you look at the picture of the tube, you'll see the words MOLY 77 GREASE.
The service manual indicates where Moly grease is used, and where the Moly paste should be used.

 

[Igofar]

I just replaced the entire rear driveshaft assembly for an 2007 ST1300 with only 54,000 miles on it, that the dealership used the Moly 77 grease on....the splines were damaged to the point of having cracks in them, and the spline plate was chewed up beyond repair after only a few hundred miles.
The M77 had balled up into beads and was rolling around in the spline area like a little cement mixer, leaving the splines dry and unprotected.
If you insist on using this stuff, start saving your money, as the rear assembly is over $1,400 dollars for just the pumpkin alone.

 

[Andrew Shadow]

There you have it in their own words......"This product should be used whenever the service manual recommends applying molybdenum disulfide grease".
If you look at the picture of the tube, you'll see the words MOLY 77 GREASE.
The service manual indicates where Moly grease is used, and where the Moly paste should be used.

Agreed. I noticed this as well as soon as I was given the print out. While I was still at the Honda dealer I pointed it out to the service manager and showed him what the service manual says. He at least agreed that the whole thing did not make any sense. He took down the information and my contact information. He was to submit it to Honda to see what they would say about it. He also warned me that Honda doesn't have a good track record at getting back to them on these type of issues. At least I can give them credit for one thing- the techs in the service department actually knew what Moly 60 was, actually had it on their benches and actually used it.

 

[jfheath]

Andrew points out what seems to be a very clear misunderstanding amongs a lot of people - which apparently includes Honda dealers - about this issue, and there have been many discussions about it before.

A few weeks back, Larry sent me some photos of some final drives that he had been working on. I intended to get them onto the site, but never got round to it. I think that his comment in post #6 refers to the photos that he sent. Here they are - click the thumbnail for a clearer image.




The shop manual makes a couple of references to MoS2 products. 'Molybdenum Disulphide Grease' and 'Molybdenum Disulphide Paste' - the distinction is linked with the amount of solids (in this case MoS2) in the lubricant. The same distinction is also made on the Dow Corning Website.

The manual also states the consistency that is required - NLGI #2 (Peanut Butter according to wiki).

The Honda shop manual also recommends Rocol ASP. I contacted Rocol, and this is no longer produced, but has been replaced by Rocol Dry Moly Paste, which fits the spec, but is a tiny bit stiffer at NLGI #3. The spec for this product is here.

The spec that all of the recommended products seem to have in common is the ability to operate in high/extreme pressures - information obtained by downloading the technical data sheets and/or contacting the company.

Larry did a smear test on various pastes: The pics are below:



The result for the Larry's Honda M60 paste did not match with my own test - below. The smear on the left is the Honda M60, the smear on the right is the Rocol Dry Moly Paste. This felt very much the same consistency as the M60, but dragged a tiny bit more when smearing in a circular motion with my finger. The spec for the Belray is here.



Dow Corning - the company that Honda recommends in both places that it mentions a specific company - make an M-77 Assembly paste.
The original tech sheet for this product stated quite specifically that it was suitable for low to moderate loads and low speeds. Dow Corning's new website also has M-77 listed, but now quotes it as being suitable in extreme loads, and contains in excess of 60% MoS2. It seems that they may have changed the specification The tube of the Honda M-77 states that it is 'formulated specifically for Honda and Acura vehicles'. Acura are the luxury end of the Honda car market, apparently. So not ST1300s or Goldwings then ?

I contacted Honda UK about what they recommend to the Honda dealers that they support - specifically as a replacement for the Honda Moly 60 for use on the splines of the final drive/wheel. They came up with a completely different product - details of which I posted in another thread. I contacted them, but got no reply, and I could not find any detailed specs. What was significant was that they did not say that they had substituted Honda M77.

Me - I won't be using Honda M-77. I have seen nothing that says it is a suitable replacement for use on final drive splines, and there are no specs available for it that I have found. Andrews photo says that ''This product should be used whenever the service manual recommends applying molybdenum disulphide grease.' So that clinches it for me - if they had meant to use it wherever the manual call for MoS2 paste, that is what they would have said.

Many thanks Andrew - a useful contribution - I had not seen that reference before, and it might explain why so many people are saying it is the replacement - without reading the qualifying statement beneath.

And sorry that it took me so long to upload your photos, Larry !

 

[Kevcules]

JFHeath....all your attachments say "invalid attachment"

Andrew.....I also used Moly77 paste to lube my splines last year when I got my bike (as per my local Honda dealerships recommendation)
Now I'm concerned that it may not be doing the lubricating it's supposed to do. What are you going to use instead? Are the loctite or belray products good , as long as they have the proper amount of disulfate in them?

 

[Kevcules]

What lubricant options do we have to protect these expensive pumpkins?

I think I'll go talk to the honda guys again soon....

 

[Bush]

I also used Moly77 paste

Don't you mean "grease"? The paste is what we want, not the M77 grease. Let's try to keep the terminology correct so as to avoid more ongoing confusion.

 

[Bush]

What lubricant options do we have to protect these expensive pumpkins?

Forget talking to the Honda guys. They will tell you the same thing they tell everyone else, which is use the Moly 77. As Soontobeone stated in his earlier post, this appears to be a good substitute.

https://www.rshughes.com/p/Loctite-LB-8012-Paste-Anti-Seize-Lubricant-8-Oz-Can-Formerly-Known-As-Loctite-Moly-Paste-51048/079340_51048/

 

[Kevcules]

Don't you mean "grease"? The paste is what we want, not the M77 grease. Let's try to keep the terminology correct so as to avoid more ongoing confusion.

Thanks for your concern for the thread.....

I'm not confused at all. My tube does say grease, but the part # is listed as paste, just like the PDF says?? My honda dealership called it paste and now the guys like Larry who repair them is saying it's not the right stuff to use. I'm good, I'm just hoping the rest of you get it right??

 

[jfheath]

JFHeath....all your attachments say "invalid attachment"

Cheers - fixed now. Don't know what went wrong there - I could see them !!

 

[Kevcules]

See post #5. It shows an option.

Yeah I saw that as I mentioned. How long have you been using it?