Just curious, what oil are you guys using?
Motor oil
- Thread starter Rick Fisher
- Start date
OP
OP
That's what I'm using. The full synthetic Valvoline.
OP
OP
I'm actually being serious about this issue, specifically, what motor oil to use in my 98 ST1100. I heard recently that synthetic oils might not be good for an older motorcycle with a wet clutch.
Uncle Phil
Site Supporter
I use full syn in all of mine for years. Rotella T6 and now Mobil 1 and looking at Lucas.
Likewise Rick, but I don't personally know of any issues.
I think it was thought to increase burning of the oil requiring regular top ups.
I use a Motad semi synthetic bike oil and it never needs topping up despite around 70,000 miles and 6 to 8000 mile change intervals. I use this because it was recommended by a motorcycle mechanic I have faith in.
You will probably regret asking but it's too early to ride in most areas so why not.
I'll guess 150 posts.....
Upt'North.
Any 10w40 or 15w40 on sale that says '...suitable for diesel and petrol engines...'. Maybe I'll go as far as buying a semi synthetic...... Certainly non of the new (and expensive) stuff.....
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I picked up a jug of RN4 10-40 from Honda, hope it works.
TPadden
Tom Padden
Seriously in my lifetime the only oil I ever had any issue with was Motul - I had to watch a video to show me how to open the container.
Tom
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it used to be the case that oils which could cause issues with wet clutches had the 'energy conserving' label on them, and those were the ones to avoid. For some reason I don't think that's 100% reliable any longer, based on some comments made here a while back, but I'm not sure of the details. Generally, anything that's 10w40, 15w50, 20w50 is going to be OK in a bike with a wet clutch, its the 5w30 and thinner stuff that's typically been the ones that might cause problems.
Well if you are worried about it the original factory oil Honda GN 10W 40 is still sold at your nearest Honda dealer
TPadden
Tom Padden
JASO MA / MA1 / MA2
www.rymax-lubricants.com
What does the JASO oil specification mean?
JASO (Japanese Automotive Standards Organization) is an organization consisting of major vehicle manufacturers in Japan. It was created as the Japanese equivalent to the API (American Petroleum Institute) specifications because those were not suitable for the unique specification needs of modern...
Horsehead
Slow Pokin' the Southeast
Rotella T6 if I can find it, T5 if I can't. 15W-40.
not any, you want to say away from oils that have lots of molybdenum. It's bad for the clutches.
...Been OK for the last 23 years! How do I tell if it's loaded with moly anyway?
Andrew Shadow
Site Supporter
The below is what I learned the hard way, after suffering engine oil induced clutch slippage myself. It is not my intention to argue the point with anyone because I know the futility of that. I am relaying my bad experience because of poor engine oil choices that I made, and what I learned about engine oil labeling standards that make choosing an automotive engine oil that is safe for wet clutch operation more difficult than I had realized. If this helps anyone that is good. If it doesn't, I wasted fifteen minutes of my time and one cup of coffee.
Being 10W40 or heavier weight is no assurance that the oil is safe for wet clutch use. Neither is it not being labeled as resource or energy conserving.
Because of this, in my opinion, there are two options if one is concerned about using an oil that will not harm their wet clutch.
One option is to purchase an engine oil that claims that it is suitable for use in wet clutch operation. There are many oils that state this. Usually the label will state something to the effect of meets the requirements of JASO MA. The decision that needs to be made with this choice is whether or not you trust whoever is responsible for what is written on that label, and that when they state that it meets the requirements of, that this claim is based as much in truth as it is in marketing.
Note the use of the terminology that usually is something to the effect of meets the requirements of ...... It is written this way because it has never been submitted for certification, so it has never been proven to meet that specification. As such, it can not be labeled that it does without being sued by JASO. Without certification, it is then up to you to believe it or not.
The other option is to purchase engine oil that is certified by JASO as a JASO MA oil. Note the use of the terminology again. It will state that it is certified JASO MA, and will have a JASO MA certification mark and certification number on it. JASO MA certification is the best, and the only verifiable assurance, that an oil meets the wet clutch specification.
The label can state that it meets whatever standard that they want to write on it. Without JASO certification, anything else is hope, wish, or conjecture that has not been certified.
The above is what I learned after suffering clutch slippage myself. I had never used engine oils that stated Resource Conserving, Energy Conserving or Energy Conserving II on the label. I used the same oils for many, many years up to that point. I wasn't sure why I began having clutch slippage when I never had before. After some research, I discovered that engine oil standards had changed. More importantly, so had the labeling standards. I found out that automobile engine oil is allowed to contain, and may very well contain, much of the same friction modifiers in it as Resource Conserving, Energy Conserving or Energy Conserving II oils do. But because this oil does not meet the full registration requirement of the resource or energy conserving specification, it is not labeled as such. Now you have an oil that can be harmful to a wet clutch without any way of knowing this. This is in fact why the Japanese motorcycle manufacturers launched the JASO MA certification in the first place, because the lack of Resource Conserving, Energy Conserving or Energy Conserving II being on the label no longer meant that the oil was safe for wet clutch use.
I switched to a JASO MA certified engine oil, and after flushing out the harmful additives, my clutch slippage went away.
In addition, as far back as 2017 API was supposed to cease licensing the use of the Energy Conserving and Energy Conserving II labeling for any oil service classes below SN. This means that all of the oils that are rated SL or SM that previously had Energy Conserving and Energy Conserving II listed on the label still have those additives that are harmful to wet clutches, but they may no longer state Energy Conserving and Energy Conserving II on the label to let you know this. This is why to this day, or least the last time that I checked, Honda continues to call for SJ rated engine oil.
I am not a chemical engineer who keeps up to date with what the lubrication industry is doing. Nor do I follow what changes the certification authorities make to the labeling that may or may not affect wet clutch operation in a motorcycle when that oil was not intended for motorcycle use to begin with. It is more effort than I am willing to put in to choosing an engine oil. My research told me that I was causing my clutch slippage problem by thinking that I was smarter than the motorcycle manufacturers by using non JASO MA certified engine oil to save a few bucks. Once I realized that I wasn't, I decided that to much effort is required to keep up with all of the changes that are always happening, and that one needs to be aware of to make an intelligent choice.
Now, I just buy JASO MA certified oil and go ride.
A word of thanks to LEE (@beemerphile), a member of this forum.
Most, if not all, of what I learned about oil certification, labeling, and why JASO MA is the best assurance available because of changes to oils and labeling standards, and why my choice was harming my clutch and why I was able to stop it before any permanent damage occurred, is because of the vast knowledge of Lee, and his willingness to share that knowledge with me and educate me. He no longer seems to post on this forum, which is a shame and a loss for this forum. His knowledge is helpful.
Being 10W40 or heavier weight is no assurance that the oil is safe for wet clutch use. Neither is it not being labeled as resource or energy conserving.
Because of this, in my opinion, there are two options if one is concerned about using an oil that will not harm their wet clutch.
One option is to purchase an engine oil that claims that it is suitable for use in wet clutch operation. There are many oils that state this. Usually the label will state something to the effect of meets the requirements of JASO MA. The decision that needs to be made with this choice is whether or not you trust whoever is responsible for what is written on that label, and that when they state that it meets the requirements of, that this claim is based as much in truth as it is in marketing.
Note the use of the terminology that usually is something to the effect of meets the requirements of ...... It is written this way because it has never been submitted for certification, so it has never been proven to meet that specification. As such, it can not be labeled that it does without being sued by JASO. Without certification, it is then up to you to believe it or not.
The other option is to purchase engine oil that is certified by JASO as a JASO MA oil. Note the use of the terminology again. It will state that it is certified JASO MA, and will have a JASO MA certification mark and certification number on it. JASO MA certification is the best, and the only verifiable assurance, that an oil meets the wet clutch specification.
The label can state that it meets whatever standard that they want to write on it. Without JASO certification, anything else is hope, wish, or conjecture that has not been certified.
The above is what I learned after suffering clutch slippage myself. I had never used engine oils that stated Resource Conserving, Energy Conserving or Energy Conserving II on the label. I used the same oils for many, many years up to that point. I wasn't sure why I began having clutch slippage when I never had before. After some research, I discovered that engine oil standards had changed. More importantly, so had the labeling standards. I found out that automobile engine oil is allowed to contain, and may very well contain, much of the same friction modifiers in it as Resource Conserving, Energy Conserving or Energy Conserving II oils do. But because this oil does not meet the full registration requirement of the resource or energy conserving specification, it is not labeled as such. Now you have an oil that can be harmful to a wet clutch without any way of knowing this. This is in fact why the Japanese motorcycle manufacturers launched the JASO MA certification in the first place, because the lack of Resource Conserving, Energy Conserving or Energy Conserving II being on the label no longer meant that the oil was safe for wet clutch use.
I switched to a JASO MA certified engine oil, and after flushing out the harmful additives, my clutch slippage went away.
In addition, as far back as 2017 API was supposed to cease licensing the use of the Energy Conserving and Energy Conserving II labeling for any oil service classes below SN. This means that all of the oils that are rated SL or SM that previously had Energy Conserving and Energy Conserving II listed on the label still have those additives that are harmful to wet clutches, but they may no longer state Energy Conserving and Energy Conserving II on the label to let you know this. This is why to this day, or least the last time that I checked, Honda continues to call for SJ rated engine oil.
I am not a chemical engineer who keeps up to date with what the lubrication industry is doing. Nor do I follow what changes the certification authorities make to the labeling that may or may not affect wet clutch operation in a motorcycle when that oil was not intended for motorcycle use to begin with. It is more effort than I am willing to put in to choosing an engine oil. My research told me that I was causing my clutch slippage problem by thinking that I was smarter than the motorcycle manufacturers by using non JASO MA certified engine oil to save a few bucks. Once I realized that I wasn't, I decided that to much effort is required to keep up with all of the changes that are always happening, and that one needs to be aware of to make an intelligent choice.
Now, I just buy JASO MA certified oil and go ride.
A word of thanks to LEE (@beemerphile), a member of this forum.
Most, if not all, of what I learned about oil certification, labeling, and why JASO MA is the best assurance available because of changes to oils and labeling standards, and why my choice was harming my clutch and why I was able to stop it before any permanent damage occurred, is because of the vast knowledge of Lee, and his willingness to share that knowledge with me and educate me. He no longer seems to post on this forum, which is a shame and a loss for this forum. His knowledge is helpful.
from post #17 The other option is to purchase engine oil that is certified by JASO as a JASO MA oil. Note the use of the terminology again. It will state that it is certified JASO MA, and will have a JASO MA certification mark and certification number on it. JASO MA certification is the best, and the only verifiable assurance, that an oil meets the wet clutch specification.
The label can state that it meets whatever standard that they want to write on it. Without JASO certification, anything else is hope, wish, or conjecture that has not been certified.
or look for oil testing sites like this one, https://pqia.org/ many use Rotela Diesel oil 15/40 minute moly if any.
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Thank you @Andrew Shadow.
I used to go by the manual and looked for the SJ minimum spec. I have never seen the Energy Conserving identifier on a container and the API SJ oil was hard to find. But the book says 'minimum' API SJ, so you have to take a gamble on whether SL or SM also meets the SJ spec.
So I found one that was a respected oil manufacturer that also specifically mentioned wet clutch and hoped I was right.
I found 10w40 better for the ST1300, 10w30 made the engine 'pink' / rattle / pre-ignite on hot days.
Fully synth also 'feels' better. I don't know why.
But from the link provided by @TPadden - post #13 - about JASO standards I note a distinction between
JASO MA, JASO MA1 and JASO MA2
I had wrongly assumed that if MA is good, MA1 and MA2 would be the next steps up.
Not so. They have specific qualities for specific bikes:
MA for one-oil engines - engine, gearbox and clutch, no modifiers - so ST1100
MA1 for bikes using separate oils for engine, gearbox and clutch
MA2 Higher spec one-oil engines, including models with exhaust modifications, catalytic convertors, air injection - so ST1300 and 1100
And I wonder if I have ever made that error, so I nervously go to check out my current oil choice. A Motul 10w40 Fully synth. 7100.
Phew. Its an MA2 oil and has a very detailed tech data sheet which gives a lot of useful info about what it is suitable for.
Check out the oils on the Motul site. Other sites may also have these now.
Pity that it says it is suitable for Suzuki, Yamaha and Kawasaki.
It seems that 10w30 is their recommendation for the STs
I'm worried again now !
I used to go by the manual and looked for the SJ minimum spec. I have never seen the Energy Conserving identifier on a container and the API SJ oil was hard to find. But the book says 'minimum' API SJ, so you have to take a gamble on whether SL or SM also meets the SJ spec.
So I found one that was a respected oil manufacturer that also specifically mentioned wet clutch and hoped I was right.
I found 10w40 better for the ST1300, 10w30 made the engine 'pink' / rattle / pre-ignite on hot days.
Fully synth also 'feels' better. I don't know why.
But from the link provided by @TPadden - post #13 - about JASO standards I note a distinction between
JASO MA, JASO MA1 and JASO MA2
I had wrongly assumed that if MA is good, MA1 and MA2 would be the next steps up.
Not so. They have specific qualities for specific bikes:
MA for one-oil engines - engine, gearbox and clutch, no modifiers - so ST1100
MA1 for bikes using separate oils for engine, gearbox and clutch
MA2 Higher spec one-oil engines, including models with exhaust modifications, catalytic convertors, air injection - so ST1300 and 1100
And I wonder if I have ever made that error, so I nervously go to check out my current oil choice. A Motul 10w40 Fully synth. 7100.
Phew. Its an MA2 oil and has a very detailed tech data sheet which gives a lot of useful info about what it is suitable for.
Check out the oils on the Motul site. Other sites may also have these now.
Pity that it says it is suitable for Suzuki, Yamaha and Kawasaki.
It seems that 10w30 is their recommendation for the STs
I'm worried again now !
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