Odd rear brake question on ST1300

Joined
Jun 9, 2008
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133
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Sparks, NV
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2005 ST1300
Hi,

This struck me as odd and I could not locate a similar post.

On center stand, the rear wheel rotates by hand.
When I apply the rear brake (sitting in garage), the rear wheel stops. (ok, normal so far)
When I release the rear brake, the rear wheel stays locked. I have to crack open the rear bleed screw/then close and the rear wheel rotates again.

I bled all brakes per other posts in the specific order, still this occurs?

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Andrew
 

Igofar

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18 minutes, how's that for a response time? :rofl1:
Replaced 3 of them today ;)
Andrew, if you Message me a contact phone number, I'll call you tomorrow and explain more than you could possibly want to know about your braking system, and how to get it working correctly.
Igofar (Larry)
 

Igofar

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Sounds like a stuck caliper piston to me.
15 year old bike....its never just that easy ;)
He reached out to me already, and I'll be dialing the white courtesy phone in a few minutes.
Details to follow, when it happens, as it happens, stay tuned :WCP1:
 
OP
OP
islandstar
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Messages
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Sparks, NV
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2005 ST1300
18 minutes, how's that for a response time? :rofl1:
Replaced 3 of them today ;)
Andrew, if you Message me a contact phone number, I'll call you tomorrow and explain more than you could possibly want to know about your braking system, and how to get it working correctly.
Igofar (Larry)
Message sent, thanks!
 
OP
OP
islandstar
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Update: Larry and I spoke on the white courtesy phone :thumb: and I've ordered a new SMC.

The "dude" is rather well informed and after sharing a few photos, the "second" call came...gulp! Yea, so I have some things to check beyond the rear caliper. lol.

My action item list has grown exponentially.

While I wait for parts to arrive to address the rear caliper... I've began work on things Larry "suggested".

  • Replace SMC (Larry even provided a parts list for this and a few other suggested items, love this guy!)
  • Stick with OEM air filter (Acquired/Installed)
  • Motion Pro makes a part that'll make your bleeding life simpler. (Acquired)
  • Lesson on brake pad mfg...stick with OEM (Purchased)
  • Front axle re-seating. (Completed)
  • Do not have the front lower driving light on the same bolt as the SMC. (Plan in progress)
  • Check right spark plug access panel is not cutting into plug casing. (Address shortly)
  • Ensure left farkle plug is resting in left cowl pocket and not against hot items. (Address shortly)
  • Modify empty oil container for "less mess" oil filter changeout (Address shortly)
  • Quicker methods to access PCV when bleeding brakes. (Address when SMC is replaced)
  • FYI's"
    • When performing final drive oil replacement, do not crush O-ring when replacing plug.
    • Check rear caliper bracket for possible "warpage"
    • Simpler method to access clutch bleeder behind left cowl
ok, I'm struggling to remember the "3 things"...crossing fingers. lol

And most important:
Igofar really cares about us, thank you!


#1: Replaced my K&N for the OEM air filter
20200829_194545.jpg


#2: Adjust my forks so they are level..."Larry kind of level", after removing the front wheel, I could not rotate the inserted axle easily, now I can rotate with 2 fingers. (video would not attach)
20200829_185251.jpg


#3: The SMC is toast, new unit ordered. Also will look into relocating the lower left driving light.
20200828_164545.jpg


#4: Picked up a motion pro one way valve from Summit Racing per Larry so I can more easily bleed the brakes after the SMC is replaced.
2020-08-29 21.41.35.jpg


Regarding #2 photo above, this video shows how the front axle will rotate easily with each end in its proper place, but needed a full grip to rotate when fully inserted....indicating both left/right forks were not perfectly level to eachother.
The 2nd video will show a low resistance axle rotation after adjusting both forks.


 
Last edited:

drrod

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OK, I need some help. If the bike is on the center stand (ie. stationary), and the rear brake is applied, how does the SMC come into play in this case? I was always under the understanding that the SMC was actuated when the front caliper (containing the SMC) grabbed the disc and caused the SMC to move slightly. Therefore, a faulty SMC would not cause sticking of the rear wheel after application of the rear (or either) brake without the bike being in motion. Not saying that the SMC does not need attention but how does it cause the issue noted by the OP?

Igofar will be along shortly to help you sort your Secondary Master Cylinder issues.
 

Kevcules

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OK, I need some help. If the bike is on the center stand (ie. stationary), and the rear brake is applied, how does the SMC come into play in this case? I was always under the understanding that the SMC was actuated when the front caliper (containing the SMC) grabbed the disc and caused the SMC to move slightly. Therefore, a faulty SMC would not cause sticking of the rear wheel after application of the rear (or either) brake without the bike being in motion. Not saying that the SMC does not need attention but how does it cause the issue noted by the OP?
If the SMC is faulty, it's more than likely putting pressure on the rear caliper ,as that's it job. But if it's always putting pressure, then that is a big problem. Spinning the rear wheel to see if it spins a few revolutions may tell you if that caliper is sticking.
You can test the SMC by laying down beside the bike, spin the rear wheel with your foot and press the SMC forward. This should stop the rear wheel.
As said above, Larry should along soon. :)
 

drrod

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If the SMC is faulty, it's more than likely putting pressure on the rear caliper ,as that's it job. But if it's always putting pressure, then that is a big problem. Spinning the rear wheel to see if it spins a few revolutions may tell you if that caliper is sticking.
You can test the SMC by laying down beside the bike, spin the rear wheel with your foot and press the SMC forward. This should stop the rear wheel.
As said above, Larry should along soon. :)
I understand all that but I still don't see how if the bike is stationary, the back wheel be free, and then stick after brake application and that be a problem with the SMC. If the SMC was not releasing, from previous application when the bike was in motion, the rear wheel would not spin freely as the OP stated. At least is wouldn't in my skewed view of things.:rolleyes:
Gotta love linked braking systems!!
 

CruSTy

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I understand all that but I still don't see how if the bike is stationary, the back wheel be free, and then stick after brake application and that be a problem with the SMC. If the SMC was not releasing, from previous application when the bike was in motion, the rear wheel would not spin freely as the OP stated. At least is wouldn't in my skewed view of things.:rolleyes:
Gotta love linked braking systems!!
Mostly has to do with where the SMC Piston stops when it is resting and whether or not the compensation port is open or clogged. If the piston does not return fully to its seated position it acts like a one way check valve in the rear braking system. It can be inconsistent in early stages of failure. Dirt in the compensating port could be inconsistent as well. I'm not an expert in this design. Just speaking from experience.
 

Igofar

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I understand all that but I still don't see how if the bike is stationary, the back wheel be free, and then stick after brake application and that be a problem with the SMC. If the SMC was not releasing, from previous application when the bike was in motion, the rear wheel would not spin freely as the OP stated. At least is wouldn't in my skewed view of things.:rolleyes:
Gotta love linked braking systems!!
I'm sorry, but due to the high volume of calls on the white courtesy phone today, you may experience longer than normal responses and return calls.
Your question is important, and will be answered when I catch my breath.
I'm on caller 29 today :WCP1: .
In the mean time, I urge you to read John Heaths article on brakes, as it will answer your question about the SMC return and inlet port(s) when the bike is stationary.
 

jfheath

John Heath
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OK, I need some help. If the bike is on the center stand (ie. stationary), and the rear brake is applied, how does the SMC come into play in this case? I was always under the understanding that the SMC was actuated when the front caliper (containing the SMC) grabbed the disc and caused the SMC to move slightly. Therefore, a faulty SMC would not cause sticking of the rear wheel after application of the rear (or either) brake without the bike being in motion. Not saying that the SMC does not need attention but how does it cause the issue noted by the OP?
Good question. I think it was this same problem that people were describing years back that made me want to find out exactly how this complicated system worked.

Are you sitting comfortably ?? Then I'll begin.

The fluid from the rear master cylinder pumps fluid to all 3 pistons on the rear caliper when the bike is stationary. There are two banjo bolts bolted to the rear master cylinder each with a hose out. One line goes direct to the rear caliper centre piston. Forget about that for now. The other line goes to the front centre pistons. The right hand side goes through a delay valve, which will casue the right hand centre piston to operate only after the preesure at the pedal is sufficent. (To prevent excessive dive on the front). The line to the left hand caliper goes to a Banjo bolt on the SMC and this has an extra hose attached which feeds the front left centre piston - which is operated immediately.

With me so far ? Ok here is the answer to your question.

The pressure from the rear brake pedal feeds fluid into the inlet port of the SMC. When the SMC is not operated - by the action of the SMC bracket rocking forward when the front brake grabs the brake disc when it is rotating - then the piston in the SMC should be fully at rest. The pressure from the operation of the brake pedal pushes fluid from behind the primary seal and on to the outside pistons of the rear caliper. (That primary seal yields easily when pressure comes from behind - a bit like the fibre cup inside an ordinary bike pump - when pushing the pump air is forced into the tyre, on the upstroke the same fibre cup gives way and allows air from behind to pass, ready to be pushed into the tyre on the next stroke.)

You can prove that fluid passes through the SMC in this manner by opening the rear outer bleed valve and pressing the brake pedal. Fluid comes out easily.

Here is a diagram of the full circuit with the line from the brake pedal to the SMC in dark purple, and the continuation through the SMC to the rear caliper in a lighter purple.

1598872057739.png


Ok - so your bike is on the centre stand, you press the brake pedal and pressure is applied to all 3 pistons in the rear caliper.
When you release the pedal, the pressure should be able to return to the master cylinder reservoir through the tiny compensation port that is uncovered when the primary seal in the master cylinder moves back past it. Unfortunately, if there is damage to either master cylinder that is preventing the full return of the piston to its relaxed state, the compensation port remains blocked and all of that pressure that you applied to the rear brake outer pistons can not escape. So your brakes do not release.

This applies to all master cylinders - at the clutch lever, the brake pedal, the front brake lever and the secondary master cylinder.

Unfortunately it is the SMC that is likely to get the most blame. It is the only one that has an upward pointing plunger, and a well which is able to catch and retain the water. It is the only one that has a dead spot in the fluid which requires the plunger to be activated and tilted to allow all of the air and all of the old water soaked fluid to be flushed out, and it is the only one where a small knock is likely to bash the master cylinder casing and 'put an egg in it' - ie make it slightly oval, impeding the full movement of the piston inside.

Here is one such SMC that failed - sawn lengthways down the cylinder bore. It appears to get narrower at the left hand end because I had to make the cut at a slight angle.
The red marks show the position of the inlet port (left) and the compensation port (right). Not that the piston only has to move a small amount before it passes and seals off the compenstation port. Ithe hole is directly in front of the lip of the primary seal. (The primary seal is the one that applies the pressure - the one just to the left of the spring).

1598871283483.png

The same SMC with the piston removed, showing the inlet port on the left and the oh-so-tiny compensation port on the right - circled.
If fluid is not flushed through properly when the brake fluid is renewed, this port can also become clogged with gunge - it eventually crystallises.
I change my fluid every year or so. I never wait the full two years.
Note also the amount of muck on the bore at the left hand end - due to water ingress and corossion. This build up prevents the piston from returning properly and leaves the primary seal blocking the compensation port.

1598871222510.png

Links to articles



 
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Georgian Bluffs Ontario Canada
You mentioned “
  • Check rear caliper bracket for possible "warpage”..... I would love to have that further expanded, as I “think “ I have come across this on my 2001 1100 I am currently ripping her down to do a complete flush, change of wearables to it and have been stopped by 1 (ONE) single bolt!
    Specifically the one that holds the rear calliper onto the swing arm... I have been BEATING this and have now got it undone but cannot remove it and yes I am now trying to remove the left exhaust, as I cannot physically pull it back far enough to allow the calliper bracket to move so I can remove the rear wheel!
    Soooo once I get the exhaust off the left side I will be able to put a puller or my slide hammer on the bolt to pull it out & replaced! It’s destroyed
  • Hence this is why I would like to know how to check that bracket for warpage!
  • Sorry I didn’t mean to hijack the thread to 1100s it’s just the bracket is the only thing else I can think of
 

drrod

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Thanks John! Never a day should go by where I don't learn something.
I have experienced the dreaded rear brake drag and it was solved by simply replacing (as per Larry's recommendation) the whole SMC.
Question.....does use have anything to do with the rear brake issue? My first 04 had 150K miles on it in 10 years and it experienced no issues. My next 04 had 35k miles on it 10 years when it had an issue. It would be interesting to see graph correlating annual mileage to frequency of brake issues. I realize that routine maintenance plays a role, but, to be honest, I was not that diligent with the first bike (maybe flushed the brakes 2X). The next 04, I can't comment on how it was handled before I got it but I have flushed it twice in the next 50K miles and it seems to be OK. I suspect environment plays a role as well. I live in a relatively dry climate so that may influence frequency of issues as well.
 
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