Oil Leak, Water pump leak, Blown rear shock seal...A sad time for STay froSTy

[Jim Van]

Bush :

You are making my argument for me. Nowhere in the manual does it say to apply 76 ft-lbs of torque to the tool. It says " Tighten the nut with the swingarm lock nut wrench while holding the left pivot bolt." The only mention of the 76 ft-lbs is in the diagram on the previous page ( an arrow points at the lock nut, not the tool ) and in the General Information Section of the manual - "Swingarm left pivot bolt lock nut ... Q'ty 1 ....Thread dia.(mm) 30 .....Torque 76 ft-lbs " . Incidentally, same specs as the right pivot bolt. Same thread and material for both means same torque required. That's basic fastener knowledge.

 

[Jim Van]

Haynes manual direct quotes:

".... Install the locknut onto the left side pivot bolt and tighten it to the specified torque setting using a torque wrench applied to the socket in the arm of the special tool ...."
"Note: The specified torque setting takes into account the extra leverage provided by the service tool and cannot be duplicated without it. Counter-hold the pivot bolt to prevent it from turning whilst tightening the locknut."

Haynes' italics, not mine.

Ha !, They are wrong. Even Haynes ( and Honda and you & me ) can make mistakes. Both the right pivot bolt and the left pivot bolt locknut have the same size thread. That is the key fact.

You better take off some plastic John, and make that torque value right before that locknut fractures from being over tightened !! I'm surprised it didn't fracture when you over-torqued it.

p.s. Since I have retired I have been enjoying this Forum.

 

[Jim Van]

OK Fella's , I think I can put this thread to rest. Looks like Honda realized the error of their ways in the ST1100 Service Manual , and I'm not making the following up.

I just looked at my ST1300 Honda Service Manual. In the General Information Section, for the locknut, it says to " See page 16-20. On that page are the directions for assembling the swingarm using a similar tool as the ST1100 tool.

It says : TORQUE : Actual : 80 ft-lbs
Indicates : 72 ft-lbs

AND, it refers back to page 16-3 .

Quoted from that page :

" When using the lock nut wrench, use a 20-inch long deflecting beam type torque wrench. The locknut nut wrench increases the torque wrench's leverage, so the torque wrench reading will be less than the torque actually applied to the locknut. The specification given on this page is actual torque applied to the locknut, not the reading on the torque wrench when used with the locknut wrench. The procedure later in the text ( page 16-20 ) gives the actual and indicated torque. "

So, to torque the locknut to 80 ft-lbs, it requires only 72 ft-lbs be applied to the tool.

BTW, both the right pivot bolt and the left pivot bolt locknut are 36mm , so that's why the torque is slightly more than 76 ft-lbs for the ST1100.

Some old Navy guy must have given Honda a heads-up about this , I bet.

 

[Bush]

Jim, I can't understand why you aren't getting this. I thought John explained it quite clearly. However, I'm sure I'm making no argument FOR you.

The facts are, Honda made a special tool to tighten that lock nut whilst preserving the torque on the pivot bolt. The diagram actually has an arrow from the number 3, which relates the part to the list of procedures table on the next page. The tiny symbol of the S. Tool and wrench has the torque values listed there. This can only mean that you use the tool in combination with your torque wrench to achieve a 76 ft/lb reading on the torque wrench. If you agree with that, what is your point?

 

[Jim Van]

Jim, I can't understand why you aren't getting this. I thought John explained it quite clearly. However, I'm sure I'm making no argument FOR you.

The facts are, Honda made a special tool to tighten that lock nut whilst preserving the torque on the pivot bolt. The diagram actually has an arrow from the number 3, which relates the part to the list of procedures table on the next page. The tiny symbol of the S. Tool and wrench has the torque values listed there. This can only mean that you use the tool in combination with your torque wrench to achieve a 76 ft/lb reading on the torque wrench. If you agree with that, what is your point?

It's all explained by Mother Honda in my #44 post. Read it if you haven't already, or if you have, then re-read it.

Focus in on this ( I'll underline and bold the most important ideas for you ) :


" When using the lock nut wrench, use a 20-inch long deflecting beam type torque wrench. The locknut wrench increases the torque wrench's leverage, so the torque wrench reading will be less than the torque actually applied to the locknut.

The specification given on this page is actual torque applied to the locknut, not the reading on the torque wrench when used with the locknut wrench. The procedure later in the text ( page 16-20 ) gives the actual and indicated torque. "

 

[Jim Van]

Jim, I can't understand why you aren't getting this. I thought John explained it quite clearly. However, I'm sure I'm making no argument FOR you.

This can only mean that you use the tool in combination with your torque wrench to achieve a 76 ft/lb reading on the torque wrench. If you agree with that, what is your point?

No, I don't agree. I think you are making an erroneous assumption.

 

[John OoSTerhuis]

Soooo.... Jim. What torque value should we use on the special tool. Enlighten us, please.

Seriously, we checked with Honda dealers and reps back in the day. 76 ft lbs it is. There's never been an errata sheet or maintenance bulletin published on your claim.

John

 

[Bush]

:noway :noway I'm thinkin' Jim is not giving up because to do so would mean he, as a self professed insane preventative maintenance guy, will have to tear into his bike to correctly set the torque on his swing arm bearings!

 

[Jim Van]

:noway :noway I'm thinkin' Jim is not giving up because to do so would mean he, as a self professed insane preventative maintenance guy, will have to tear into his bike to correctly set the torque on his swing arm bearings!

Nope, I didn't use a torque wrench and make that mistake. I did it by feel, including the bearing pre-load. Then I noted the left pivot bolt position and after I tightened the locknut with my (cheap) homebrew tool, it hadn't moved a bit, so I was good to go.

But I am looking forward to installing my budget rebuilt water pump in April.

 

[Jim Van]

Soooo.... Jim. What torque value should we use on the special tool. Enlighten us, please.

Seriously, we checked with Honda dealers and reps back in the day. 76 ft lbs it is. There's never been an errata sheet or maintenance bulletin published on your claim.

John

I believe you John. But it looks like they were incorrect. But Honda wised-up in the ST1300 manual.

The torque you should apply with your particular wrench can be calculated here : Torque Adaptors

 

[John OoSTerhuis]

I give up, Jim. And I can't work the math. Have you? What torque setting will you use on your precious ST1100?

I wonder what Honda would say today about the value to use...(?)

John [whose swingarm tool has been used well over 140 times to date]

 

[Jim Van]

John: I torqued mine by feel, just as NASA concluded.

I will post a link to an Excel spread sheet that will calculate the indicated torque based on the torque wrench length and extension length.

 

[Jim Van]

Try this John ( if you have Excel or another spreadsheet program on your computer ) :


Torque Wrench Extension Spread Sheet

My torque wrench is 15" from the middle of the handle to the center of the drive. Since 47 mm is 1.85" ,

15/ ( 15 +1.85 ) = 0.8902

So, I would need to apply ( 76 x .8902 ) = 67.7 ft-lbs of torque from my torque wrench to apply 76 ft-lbs to the locknut , with the torque wrench inline with the extension , which is only about 10% less than 76 ft-lbs.

 

[Jim Van]

Going back to the ST1300 manual , If I use a torque wrench of 20 inches, as mentioned in the ST1300 manual, and ASSUME an extension ( tool length ) of 47 mm ( 1.85" ) , to torque the ST1300 locknut to 80 ft-lbs requires ( from the torque wrench ) :

20 / ( 20+1.85 ) = 0.9153

And , ( 80 x .9153 ) = 73.2 ft-lbs , which is close to the 72 ft-lbs specified in the ST1300 manual. So , my assumption that the length of the extension is 47 mm must be pretty close to the actual extension length for the ST1300 tool.

Good night .......

 

[Bush]

My last thought here stems from this quote from a previous post here by John . . .

There's never been an errata sheet or maintenance bulletin published on your claim.

This alone should confirm that the torque value shown is the torque value to be applied with the tool, as Honda could face serious claims if "incidents" arose due to improper specs for a critical part of the bike and there was no attempt to correct the error. Could the greatly expanded explanation, as given in the 1300 manual, be there simply because Honda had so many enquiries about this over the 1100 years?

I'm curious to know, in that 1300 manual, what, or how, is the torque value given, in the schematic diagram, for the lock nut?

 

[Jim Van]

Honda dropped the ball in the ST1100 Manual. They covered their you-know-what in the ST1300 manual. But IMHO, they weren't about to admit their mistake ( Honda has deep pockets, eh ? ).

To answer your question Bush, there is no diagram in the ST1300 Manual with the torque values indicated as there is in the ST1100 Manual.

But, please re-read the quote from the ST1300 Manual.

It says : TORQUE : Actual : 80 ft-lbs
Indicates : 72 ft-lbs

That means the torque spec for the locknut is 80 ft-lbs ( same as the pivot bolt on the opposite side since both are 36 mm ) .

And that means to torque the locknutt to 80 ft-lbs , the indicated torque on the torque wrench should be 72 ft-lbs.

A very simple idea, once it's understood the wrench ( working as an extension ) will "add" torque to the locknut, compared to the torque value indicated by the torque wrench.

Basically, a torque wrench applies a calibrated force. Since Torque = Force x Distance , the tool ( extension ) , adds distance. So for the same Force, you will produce more Torque when using the tool/extension.

 

[Bush]

I completely understand where you are coming from with your line of thinking Jim. Got that the first time you outlined it. It's just that I, John and the dozens of others that questioned this many years ago believe that what Honda put in the 1100 manual is the "indicated" torque you should see on the wrench, when using the tool. Do you really think that you could be the only one, after all these years, that has discovered the truth here?

 

[Jim Van]

I completely understand where you are coming from with your line of thinking Jim. Got that the first time you outlined it. It's just that I, John and the dozens of others that questioned this many years ago believe that what Honda put in the 1100 manual is the "indicated" torque you should see on the wrench, when using the tool. Do you really think that you could be the only one, after all these years, that has discovered the truth here?

Apparently ..... What can I say ??

 

[STay froSTy]

Update.....
I replaced the water pump, all the coolant hoses and orings. Forgot to take pics of the work. The old pump just had a little bit of coolant coming out of the weep hole. No other coolant was seen inside the housing.

On another note......something followed me home this past weekend. More to follow

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk

 

[paulcb]

On another note......something followed me home this past weekend. More to follow

Don't forget the pics this time!