Ontario Members- Salvage Registration Question

[Andrew Shadow]

Friend has a 1995 BMW R100RT that was issued a salvage title issued in Manitoba years ago. It was scrapped by an insurance company because of money. It was scrapped because the cost of repairs exceeded the value of the motorcycle, not because of any physical or mechanical condition that makes the motorcycle unsafe or not roadworthy in any way.

This guy subsequently moved to Quebec and had this motorcycle licenced in Quebec for many years. He had a safety inspection done. It passed the inspection, received a certificate and Quebec issued a registration licence for it. He has just moved to Ontario. The Ontario licencing authority will not licence this motorcycle in Ontario because they state that they can not licence any vehicle that has had a salvage title issued to it. This is despite the fact that it was licenced in Quebec for many years- they don't care.

He consulted an Ontario motorcycle shop to ask for their advice. They told him that they have encountered similar situations in the past. They told him that his only options are;
1- Sell it to someone in Quebec who can licence it there and probably sell it for a lot less than it is worth because that is the only place that he can sell it.
2- Replace the frame, which will give it a different serial number. The problem is that they say that they will have a hard time finding a replacement frame for this model that has a good title.

I have a hard time believing all of this is true and accurate. If this motorcycle was licenced for years in Quebec after the salvage title was issued, I don't see why Ontario won't accept that it is roadworthy and refuses to licence it. There must be something that he is not being told.

Does anyone in Ontario have any knowledge about how Ontario handles such situations?
Any suggestions on how he can get this resolved and licenced without taking a bath on a sale that he doesn't want to make, or without changing the frame?

 

[DavidR8]

This begs the question: does ON issue salvage titles? Because by stating that they do not license any salvage title vehicles by extension they also never issue salvage titles to ON registered vehicles. And I find that hard to believe because there has perennially been folks who buy insurance 'write-offs', repair them and then sell them with salvage titles. At least there was in AB and MB.

 

[Obo]

Not in Ontario, but the terms seem somewhat clear.

Mandatory Vehicle Branding Program

Learn about Ontario’s program to brand used vehicles and how to avoid buying an unsafe vehicle.

www.ontario.ca

Motorcycle branding
In Ontario, the only brands that can be assigned to a motorcycle are “None” and “Irreparable”.

Where there is damage to the frame that requires replacement, the motorcycle is branded as “Irreparable”.

All imported motorcycles previously branded as “Irreparable”, “Salvage”, “Rebuilt” or an equivalent brand in another jurisdiction are branded “Irreparable” when registered in Ontario.

A Structural Inspection Certificate cannot be issued for a motorcycle. This means that the motorcycle will never be eligible to be driven on Ontario roads and can only be used for parts. A vehicle permit is still issued.

 

[DavidR8]

Seems like there is a pathway for him but it ain't gonna be cheap.

 

[Andrew Shadow]

Seems like there is a pathway for him but it ain't gonna be cheap.

Which path? It is considered salvage by Ontario. I don't see a means to reverse that for motorcycles based on what that website states.
A Structural Inspection Certificate cannot be issued for a motorcycle. This means that the motorcycle will never be eligible to be driven on Ontario roads and can only be used for parts.

Not in Ontario, but the terms seem somewhat clear.

This certainly seems to state that no motorcycle that was declared salvage in any jurisdiction, not just in Ontario, can be put back on the road in Ontario.
There must be a central data base that all provinces/states access to know if a vehicle was ever branded salvage anywhere in Canada or the US based on what is written on that website.
This motorcycle was branded salvage in Manitoba. He was living in B.C. when he got it and brought it back to B.C.. I'm not sure whether or not it was licenced in B.C., but he lived there for another ten years or so before coming to Quebec so I am assuming so but will have to ask. He has lived in Quebec since around 2005 and has had it licenced in Quebec this whole time, which is why I suspect that it was licenced in B.C..

He moved to Ontario less than two weeks ago and they won't issue a licence to it, even though he presented his valid Quebec registration to them.
So they must be seeing the records from Manitoba that are prior to the records from Quebec, and presumably B.C..

It also seems that what he was told by the motorcycle shop is not correct either based on what is stated on that website. Replacing the frame will not make it eligible to be licenced in Ontario.

Thanks OBO. I don't know if he has already looked this up but I'll pass this on to him.

 

[DavidR8]

Which path? It is considered salvage by Ontario. I don't see a means to reverse that for motorcycles based on what that website states.
A Structural Inspection Certificate cannot be issued for a motorcycle. This means that the motorcycle will never be eligible to be driven on Ontario roads and can only be used for parts.

I missed that bit

 

[Oldbikefixr]

Too many bureaucrats just bureaucrating. No longer seems to matter if anything is improved as a result.

 

[Obo]

I missed that bit

My first reply before I edited it, made mention of a way I thought it would work, but that was only for cars.
When I read further the motorcycle rules (as listed) counteracted that, so I removed from my post the way I thought he might be able to make it work.

 

[RaYzerman]

A new frame with a (non-salvage) ownership will be the only way to register it in Ontario. Otherwise, the choices are sell it for parts or in another province that will allow it. This a vintage bike and I presume not a daily rider, parts might be collectible.

 

[MaxPete]

Friend has a 1995 BMW R100RT that was issued a salvage title issued in Manitoba years ago. It was scrapped by an insurance company because of money. It was scrapped because the cost of repairs exceeded the value of the motorcycle, not because of any physical or mechanical condition that makes the motorcycle unsafe or not roadworthy in any way.

This guy subsequently moved to Quebec and had this motorcycle licenced in Quebec for many years. He had a safety inspection done. It passed the inspection, received a certificate and Quebec issued a registration licence for it. He has just moved to Ontario. The Ontario licencing authority will not licence this motorcycle in Ontario because they state that they can not licence any vehicle that has had a salvage title issued to it. This is despite the fact that it was licenced in Quebec for many years- they don't care.

He consulted an Ontario motorcycle shop to ask for their advice. They told him that they have encountered similar situations in the past. They told him that his only options are;
1- Sell it to someone in Quebec who can license it there and probably sell it for a lot less than it is worth because that is the only place that he can sell it.
2- Replace the frame, which will give it a different serial number. The problem is that they say that they will have a hard time finding a replacement frame for this model that has a good title.

I have a hard time believing all of this is true and accurate. If this motorcycle was licenced for years in Quebec after the salvage title was issued, I don't see why Ontario won't accept that it is roadworthy and refuses to license it. There must be something that he is not being told.

Does anyone in Ontario have any knowledge about how Ontario handles such situations?
Any suggestions on how he can get this resolved and licensed without taking a bath on a sale that he doesn't want to make, or without changing the frame?

Similarly to the notes above, I have been told by the Ontario Min. of Transport that a motorcycle with a salvage title may not - under any circumstances - ever be granted a roadworthiness certificate. In Ontario, the actual term is that the bike has been "Branded" - and that entry appears on the ownership slip in the field imaginatively labeled "Brand". I was looking at buying a very nice BMW R100RS from a guy in Maryland USA - but juuuussst before I paid him, he mentioned that when he had bought the bike back in 1981, it had been ridden over a curb and had to have a new front wheel installed - which his insurance company had paid for. That had resulted in a "Damaged" entry on the vehicle title - and so I paused the transaction and started asking questions back here in Ontario.

NOTE: Virtually every Ontario ownership slip that you will have no entry in the "Brand" field and I suspect that most people think it refers to the name of the OEM who built the vehicle (i.e., Ford, Toyota, Porsche, etc.) but it actually refers to the status of the vehicle from a legal registration point of view. Thus, the term "Brand" is like the hot iron brand put on cattle in the Old West. It is a "permanent marking" on the bike that relates to its legal status.

Anyhow, all of this means that if a bike is scrapped in Ontario, it cannot ever be licensed for road use again and can only be used either off-road or sold for parts. Apparently, the huge upswing in bike thefts by biker gangs (virtually all Hogly-Fergusons I'm sure) caused some pinhead in the bureaucracy to create this policy and apply it to all two-wheeled conveyances. This does not apply to cars or trucks by the way - just to motorcycles.

Now - one of my riding buddies had a small accident with his beautiful 1974 (??) Norton 750 Commando when some dumb "Karen" pulled out in front of him and he laid it down and slid slowly into her stupid frickin' crapbox car. The bike was not all that badly damaged - BUT - he made the mistake of going through his insurance and the inspector/assessor found that the tubing loop around the back of the seat (i.e., supporting the rear fender) had been bent by a teeny-tiny bit - and so the bike had "frame damage"....and therefore, by law, it HAD to be written-off (another great legal idea from our provincial government - there are no frame damaged bikes on the road here in ONT).

Anyhow, he took his big fat cheque and started planning the resurrection - and he was all happy-happy joy-joy because the insurers allowed him to buy it back from them for about 15 cents on the dollar (we're talking a bike worth around $15-20K) so he bought back his bike and started fixing it.

The bike was actually still running after the crash and there was no front-end damage, the tank had a dent and a scrape and the wheels were both perfecto - so it looked pretty easy. The bent frame loop was fixed in about 15 minutes with a bit of heat and a BFH and the rest of the repairs were similarly simple. The difficulties began when he tried to register it with a current plate - and the MOT people noted that it had been branded "SALVAGE" or something like that - and they refused to issue a plate. Looked into getting a new frame for it (big bucks) or a clean titled used frame (hard to find) and then he started fighting with the government which went on for a donkey's age until some bright-light at the Ministry actually LOOKED at the policy and noted that it applied only to vehicles newer than 1980. Ah-hah said buddy - my bike is a 1974 - so it cannot legally be "Branded"!

After much to-ing and fro-ing with the pinheads (they were arguing among themselves), he was actually able to get the "Brand" removed from his ownership and he is now happily riding his snazzy re-built Commando having pocketed a handsome sum in the process. Just be aware however, that this whole rigamarole took about 2-3 years and countless letters, phone numbers, faxes, and visits to the Mother-Ship in Toronto to work through - so get ready for a fight if you try it.

But again, the policy is that any bike newer than 1980 - cannot be ever licensed in Ontario if it has been "branded" as scrapped, salvaged, damaged, repaired, or whatever - here, or in any other jurisdiction. Therefore, I would say that your buddy with the 1995 Bimmer from Manitoba is, sadly, SOL.

Pete

 

[Malks]

I'm wondering why the dates of registration from Quebec don't allow the bike to be plated in Ontario. The change to the branding in Ontario certainly was not in effect back in 2005. A vehicle plated elsewhere before the change here should be grandfathered in as being able to be listed as fit in Ontario.

I know the change to the branding is fairly recent because a close friend of mine bought a rebuilt FZ6 with a salvage title that was located in New Hampshire with a bid on eBay. This was when the exchange rate on the $ was close to par and he got a really good deal. I can't remember the exact year, but I'm sure it was within the past 15 years. He and his brother drove to New Hampshire with a trailer to pick up the bike from the seller. They did all the export / import paperwork and returned to Ontario. He had the bike certified at Canadian Tire as per instructions and then had no issues when he transferred it into his name with a "Fit" designation. He still owes and rides this bike in Ontario.

I understand that this change in legislation was made to protect consumers by reducing the number of salvaged vehicles that were being dumped in Ontario with questionable repairs. However, there should have been more choices in the designations applied to damaged vehicles. Just having Fit and Unfit is clearly insufficient.

 

[MaxPete]

I'm wondering why the dates of registration from Quebec don't allow the bike to be plated in Ontario. The change to the branding in Ontario certainly was not in effect back in 2005. A vehicle plated elsewhere before the change here should be grandfathered in as being able to be listed as fit in Ontario.

I know the change to the branding is fairly recent because a close friend of mine bought a rebuilt FZ6 with a salvage title that was located in New Hampshire with a bid on eBay. This was when the exchange rate on the $ was close to par and he got a really good deal. I can't remember the exact year, but I'm sure it was within the past 15 years. He and his brother drove to New Hampshire with a trailer to pick up the bike from the seller. They did all the export / import paperwork and returned to Ontario. He had the bike certified at Canadian Tire as per instructions and then had no issues when he transferred it into his name with a "Fit" designation. He still owes and rides this bike in Ontario.

I understand that this change in legislation was made to protect consumers by reducing the number of salvaged vehicles that were being dumped in Ontario with questionable repairs. However, there should have been more choices in the designations applied to damaged vehicles. Just having Fit and Unfit is clearly insufficient.

I fully agree Malks - this policy is punitive, it makes no sense and it is extremely detrimental to the vintage bike community - but apparently, changing it is not a matter of priority for the clowns that run the province.

Pete

 

[OldMcClelland]

Don't you Canadians have a Montana equivalent, where cars can be registered, but used throughout the country?
Rob

 

[Obo]

Don't you Canadians have a Montana equivalent, where cars can be registered, but used throughout the country?
Rob

If you move permanently to a new province you have a set time to change all your details as each province has it's own registration systems and rules for vehicles, healthcare etc.

If the bike owner still lived in Quebec, and simply was in Ontario for a few months they could certifiably still use the bike legally. The issue comes trying to register the bike in Ontario.

 

[OldMcClelland]

bummer...

How about organizing a nationwide trust, put all affected bikes into the trust. Have the trust located in the province with the best rules on old bikes. Designate a trustee who could "assign" them long term to the original owners.
You could call it the land of misfit toys, and it would be fitting, since y'all own the north pole!

just happy to be of service!

 

[CDNolddude]

I wonder how long this has been in effect. About 20 yrs ago there used to be a dealer that sold bikes that were written off by insurance companies. It was near Pickering ON if I remember right. Used to advertise as used bikes. They had tons of bikes and lots looked fine. The guy said most shouldn’t have reported as there was only cosmetic problems, and insurance companies used it as excuse to double rates etc.

 

[GhenghisKen]

If you are going to count on both the government and the insurance companies to act reasonably and in the public interest in this regard, I think you will end up disappointed.

 

[Jambriwal]

This article brings up the question if your from a different province or the US and you get pulled over in Ontario on a salvage bike? Will they seize it or make you tow it?

 

[GhenghisKen]

This article brings up the question if your from a different province or the US and you get pulled over in Ontario on a salvage bike? Will they seize it or make you tow it?

As a rule, nope. As long as the vehicle is properly registered in the other province or jurisdiction they won't say boo. They CAN however pull you over and require you to submit to a safety inspection if the vehicle appears unsafe (for example if your car is plated in NY and is falling apart, missing a door, etc and they see you on the road). If you fail or refuse the inspection - they'll "pull the plates" and impound it. Pretty rare though.

 

[Jambriwal]

Thanks