Rear flange bearing.... someone got their moneys worth

[Sadlsor]

I found (3) bearings in an 07 that the dealer replaced the flange bearings in...an no, not ball bearings, but a complete bearing...floating around inside!
One bearing was destroyed and "missing" and one was removed. The dealer pulled the one bearing out, and replaced the 2 correct parts, but didn't go to the trouble to find the destroyed one stuck in all the green wheel bearing grease all over everything!

If no pictures, this never happened.
(I kid, I kid!)

 

[STRider]

I found (3) bearings in an 07 that the dealer replaced the flange bearings in...an no, not ball bearings, but a complete bearing...floating around inside!
One bearing was destroyed and "missing" and one was removed. The dealer pulled the one bearing out, and replaced the 2 correct parts, but didn't go to the trouble to find the destroyed one stuck in all the green wheel bearing grease all over everything!

Well, that's just terrifying

 

[BakerBoy]

^Where is there room for any bearings to be floating around in there?

 

[OhioDeere]

At my work place we maintain some of the largest machinery in the country or maybe even North America. Working with bearings is common and some are very expensive ($100,000 on large ones). SKF caters to us with some of the best engineers and technicians in the country. They provide classes and hands on training frequently for the new hires. With that said, installing bearings can be as simple or very intense and complicated. When I install bearings or inspect them on my 1300 its very detailed just because. We have been trained and brain washed to appreciate the precision and skill that went into making these bearings and treat them as a holy piece of work.
I'll have to remember to post some pics of some impressive bearings. I have a 5" diameter roller as a door stop at my office door for nostalgia.

 

[BakerBoy]

^Yup. I've dealt with SKF, they're good. But their brains melt down when shown their bearings, with balls melted in just a couple hours or day, whereas other identical SKF bearings last a few days (on average). Their answer is something like "they shouldn't do that" or "yeah, you've a less than 100-hour application", or they want to sell an [impossible for the application] lube system. Yeah, no.

 

[OhioDeere]

^Yup. I've dealt with SKF, they're good. But their brains melt down when shown their bearings, with balls melted in just a couple hours or day, whereas other identical SKF bearings last a few days (on average). Their answer is something like "they shouldn't do that" or "yeah, you've a less than 100-hour application", or they want to sell an [impossible for the application] lube system. Yeah, no.

Your absolutely right.. Been there.. However, In my experience they are the leader in the world when it comes to bearings.. Even NASA lost a few challenges. And your right, there go to answer is always the lube system..
Couple years ago we installed a pair of SKF 1370mm taper roller bearings ($380,000 a set) on a rolling mill back up that failed within a month. Brought Timken in to design a new set. Theirs lasted 1 week. Mitsubishi wanted a chance at it also.. They achieved 2 weeks. Everyone else ran for the hills.. Finally SKF came back with a design that did achieve the 500 hr mark which was acceptable. They were the champion in that competition.

 

[OhioDeere]

Lets have a discussion on water proof synthetic grease injected via hyper needle as a preventative maintenance measure?

 

[ST1100Y]

....well, the OEM bearings usually start coming apart and loose balls and bits of the cage that holds them etc.

wow... do people actually neglect them that long...?!

On any occasion the wheels come off, I check by rotating the inner races by hand... and at the slightest sense of rumble or resistance, both sides get replaced...
Resistance indicates that the inner races are "squeezing" on the inner spacer (installation error), causing lateral load, hence excessive stress & wear leading to premature failure...
So again both (plus new seals of course) get replaced with OEM parts; better safe then sorry later down the road...

When removing the front wheel of my GF's NT700VA we'd just obtained used at a dealer, I found water drops and corrosion on the axle, checking the bearings just confirmed my findings:
PO must have been a Kaercher lover... hence both bearings gone...
Not packing marine lube behind the seals + use of pressure washer seem to be the #1 cause of death on wheel bearings...

 

[Al Gully]

I bought a sleeve of these bearings from China a few years ago. 10 bearings in a sleeve. Cost was like $10 if I can remember back that far.
What I do is remove one of the bearing seals and remove the grease that they packed the bearing with and put in some premium synthetic Mobil SHC mobilith 220. Put the seal back on and I'm good for 2 tire changes.
After the second tire change, the balls and cages are still intact in both bearings, but the inner bearing has major wear on the outer race.
The outer bearing could still stay in as it has no damage, but I like to change them out in pairs.
Everyone wonders where the cage dissappeard too. Well, it's made of a soft metal and once it gets under the hardened balls and bearing races, it turns into metal flakes. Once this mixes with what's left of your lubrication, it turns into lapping compound to help turn everything floating around into a grinding paste.

 

[gsforster]

This flange bearing failure thing is something I don't understand. I have only changed mine out (with oem parts) once at around 100,000 miles just because of the mileage, they still felt smooth. Still on the original wheel bearings in the rear. Help me understand the forces imposed on these flange bearings. The left and right wheel bearings should take all the radial load. In my mind then the driven flange is "floating" on the axle via the 2 bearings, and the only force those bearings should be exposed to is keeping the flange running true on the axle and drive spline hub of the final drive. It makes me wonder if those that are experiencing frequent failure of flange bearings may have uneven wear or something with the rubber dampers that would allow torque to be unevenly transferred through only a portion of the rubber wedges thus introducing a force to the flange that the little bearings can't handle. Thoughts?

 

[ST1100Y]

It makes me wonder if those that are experiencing frequent failure of flange bearings may have uneven wear or something with the rubber dampers that would allow torque to be unevenly transferred through only a portion of the rubber wedges thus introducing a force to the flange that the little bearings can't handle.

My guess would be the oscillation... the flange rocks back and forth within the rubber damping... depending on throttle/clutch action and road surface...
On an ST1100 it can wear down the bearing-boss on the wheel (as this where the drive is centered by) whilst ST1300 (and NTs) have that additional ball bearing...

 

[Al Gully]

This flange bearing failure thing is something I don't understand.
Thoughts?

The way I see it, Honda installed the wrong bearing for this application.
Don't tell the Japanese that as they will deny it till hell freezes over.
The bearing they chose is for a pure radial application. In my eyes, they should of installed an angular contact bearing that would take both radial and axial forces.
The angular contact bearing inner ring is split radially into two pieces. The design allows one bearing to sustain significant axial loads in either direction. The contact angle is 35°, so the axial load capacity is high. This type is suitable for carrying pure axial loads or combined loads where the axial loads are high.
I've even took the time to source an angular contact bearing for this application years ago.
There are 3 way to install the 2 angular contact bearings and that's when I stopped and would need a bearing expert to help with the configuration of these bearings.
Trial and error would work for this configuration too as these bearing are an excellent choice for this application.
Back to back, face to face or tandem are the 3 configurations for angular contact bearings.
Back to back was the first configuration I was going to try if I sourced a bearing to fit.
Hope this helps you with the forces generated in the area.

 

[STRider]

wow... do people actually neglect them that long...?!

On any occasion the wheels come off, I check by rotating the inner races by hand... and at the slightest sense of rumble or resistance, both sides get replaced...
<snip!>
Not packing marine lube behind the seals + use of pressure washer seem to be the #1 cause of death on wheel bearings...

Yeah, ever since my experience with the Interceptor I related in an earlier post, I always keep a set of bearings and seals on hand in case a wheel removal for some other task reveals a bearing problem when inspected. Don't want to reassemble with known bad parts or wait for new ones to arrive to get back on the road.

I bought a sleeve of these bearings from China a few years ago. 10 bearings in a sleeve. Cost was like $10 if I can remember back that far.
What I do is remove one of the bearing seals and remove the grease that they packed the bearing with and put in some premium synthetic Mobil SHC mobilith 220. Put the seal back on and I'm good for 2 tire changes.

So it sounds like you don't find, or don't trust, the Chinese bearings to deliver equal service life to OEM once you've prepped them as you describe? You just swap out more frequently and consider the cost over the same mileage to be to your advantage since they start out so much cheaper? I've never had the cojones to mess with things like bearing seals, etc, on my main ride's components.