Speed in turns

[dduelin]

+ Snipped.....
Lee Parks book "Total Control" contains lots of good information but in particular I like the section under 'chapter 12: Body Positioning' called '10 Steps to Proper Cornering.' Some on this web site don't like it because they think leaning to the inside makes them look like a "racer." But the leaning is not extreme like you see on a race track and on a porky bike like the ST without a lot of ground clearance, the body position means you can take the same turn at the same speed with the bike more upright than if you didn't use that body position. The book also corresponds well with the instruction in Total Control training courses like IRC (Intermediate rider course) and ARC (advanced rider course).

I press the Like button. Shifting the upper body to the inside gains valuable ground clearance on the ST. In this thread it's kind of an advanced skill for the basic questions posed by the OP but the Lee Parks Total Control course helped my cornering skills and was a natural follow-on to the MSF Advanced Rider Course.

 

[dkjkwood]

Bilko,

I've attached a link to a site that discusses cornering.

http://www.lazymotorbike.eu/tips/corners/#corner

 

[Bilko]

Bilko,
I've attached a link to a site that discusses cornering.
http://www.lazymotorbike.eu/tips/corners/#corner

Thanks - I Appreciate it!

 

[DbleDutch]

http://www.lazymotorbike.eu/tips/corners/#corner

Good article Thanks dk. Love the last pic in the article.

 

[Capt_Gruuvy]

I've seen comments like don't outpace your line of sight or something similar, but I really don't know what that means.

I do plan on getting to an advanced motorcycle class, but that won't be for a while.

All advice appreciated!

Here is what I have learned by sticking a motorcycle into a turn I was ill prepared for enough times before ....

In unfamiliar territory I ride pretty slow, not holding traffic slow, but I follow the signs that estimate what speed the turn is safe at. Younger me would just look at the posted speed and double it. But, I'm not that kid anymore.

Things that got me jacked up was something in the road conditions itself. A strange flex in the pavement angle, a divot in the blacktop or who knows.

So, in a strange place, I'll back it down, pay attention to the clues mentioned above (very wise words) and if you find that the turns would have been more enjoyable about 10 -20 mph faster then turn around and do it again. No one is going to grade you.

What I have seen more than I care to think about is less road conditions and more guys out riding past their pay grade. If you lack experience obtain it slowly and wisely.

Ride in such a fashion that you'll be alive to ride again tomorrow .... only a little better.

 

[JPKalishek]

if you're grounding the center stand on the left, or the crash bar on the right ... you went in a bit too hot.
Not helpful?

Good basic rule in a bend - go in slow, come out fast, don't ride past what you can see, and learn about the vanishing point (where the road meets the verge - if that point moves away from you, you can speed up, if it is coming toward you, slow down - takes practice), late apexing (a whole 'nother subject). I would highly recommend PROFICIENT MOTORCYCLING and MORE PROFICIENT MOTORCYCLING by David Hough. Also, if your gut is in a knot, your brain is telling you that you are riding faster than you should be riding. ;-)

^very good advice, this^

 

[MajorTom]

Bilko,

I've attached a link to a site that discusses cornering.

http://www.lazymotorbike.eu/tips/corners/#corner

I enjoyed the article, which contained good advice on how to set up for a corner and riding within your comfort zone, but the descriptions on how to change the lean angle of your motorcycle and steering with your buttocks were LOL ridiculous. If you try and change the lean angle of your ST in a corner by pushing against the tank with your knee, or against the seat with your butt you're heading off the road or into the opposing lane. Everyone who rides needs to understand countersteering and how to use it to change your riding line. I learned a lot about cornering from the Lee Parks Total Control: High Performance Street Riding book.

 

[Big Russ]

I've searched, but have not been finding a rule of thumb or guidelines for judging the amount of speed you can use for up coming turns.

Any pointers from folks in layman terms?

I've read a twist of the wrist ii a few times, it indicates a good line is any line that works for you that allows proper throttle control. When you crack on the gas you do so smoothly and consistently until you exit, but how do you determine appropriate speed when approahing turns / twisties that are unfamiliar?

I've seen comments like don't outpace your line of sight or something similar, but I really don't know what that means.

I do plan on getting to an advanced motorcycle class, but that won't be for a while.

All advice appreciated!

Might I suggest that outpacing your line of sight refers to the 'Limit Point' or the Vanishing Point.

Pretty much how far can you see down the road, and is the limit of vision actually coming back towards you, in which case the curve /bend is getting sharper and you should back it off.

This is better explained in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkAtWiRq8Q0

This Russ is a well known respected UK riding instructor who has a large You-Tube channel and does most of his videos on an ST1100

This is him riding the 'cat and fiddle' which was a favorite motorcycling road through limestone country in the midlands of England.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3niqkN4u22I
Note also the rev counter for the road speed ( 50-60 mph), he hasn't got it in top gear, but in 4th or 3rd... the responsive gear, when he closes the throttle the effect is immediate effect on speed . It is also a technique to ensure as has been said earlier , that you are able to corner under constant acceleration, that is the motor proving power to the back wheel, rather than with the throttle shut and the bike wandering about across the road.

 

[Highway STar]

Having recently ridden 4 days of twisties at OH-STOC I can say on a clean road (no sand or gravel) I could easily handle the recommended speed with about 15% extra, even on those frightening curves to the left that go over a rise and then the road is sloped away to the right while still turning left. The bottom line is ride at your level of comfort and remember your bike can probably make pretty much any turn with decent traction. Countersteering is key to staying shiny side up when you have underestimated the turn. Better to scrape the pegs than go off the corner. I was riding two up so shifting into the inside is not as much of an option for me and I did scrape the pegs a couple of times but i have a bit of riding experience and an excellent passenger so it wasn't a problem. It is still un-nerving however to hear that sound.

Practice.

 

[Mark]

Tough question...

Familiar roads: fast.
Unfamiliar roads: not so fast... probably the posted speed limit; but, not the yellow sign suggestion as those are always too slow.

 

[Grabcon]

There is a lot of good stuff posted here in this thread and I think every one can contribute something but as mention earlier experience is key to any type of riding. Last fall I took a class on a track with my ST1300. Again there was a bunch of good stuff but one of the most important things that has stuck with me is RISK in curves. How do you reduce risk.

The smaller the radius of a curve the lower the speed and the greater lean angle. Greater lean angle causes higher risk. If you straighten a curve by adjust your entrance and exist you will increase the radius, have higher speed and less lean angle. Risk is reduced. This also allows you to have better corner braking and much higher exist speed as the bike is more upright.

Roads that I used to ride and I would scrap pegs I can now take at higher speeds and no more peg scrapping. When I ride I practices this technique every time all the time. It is now habit. Yes there are many thing to improve corner techniques and every one will have an opinion but this works. Ask any one who has raced, look at their riding line. This was very obvious in yesterdays MotoGP race in the rain. As the track started to dry out it was so clear that their corners were straightened out.

 

[Rekoob]

In addition to all the info you've been given I would also mention Sport Riding Techniques by Nick Ienatsch.

I was part of the military pilot program for both the Lee Parks Total Control course and the Sport Bike course developed by Nick Ienatsch... Both books are invaluable.

Keep us posted on how things are going.

 

[SMSW]

Tough question...

Familiar roads: fast.
Unfamiliar roads: not so fast... probably the posted speed limit; but, not the yellow sign suggestion as those are always too slow.

I have to disagree, Mark. I was riding on unfamiliar roads in the Adirondacks last year and found myself riding too fast in some curves (based on my comfort level). So I slowed down to the yellow speed limit sign - it was great. And after a while, I increased my speed in the twisties. So, while the yellow signs might be too slow for some (or even many) they can be a good guide if you don't feel comfortable.

Peter

 

[Grabcon]

Sport Riding Techniques by Nick Ienatsch

I will give a +1 on this book. I took Nick's class last fall and is based on the book and it was great. He practices what he preaches. For those that don't know who Nick Ienatsch is he and his team run the Yamaha School of Champions. I actually preferred Nick's class over the Total control class.

 

[Mark]

they can be a good guide if you don't feel comfortable.

Yup, you have to stay in your comfort zone no matter what...

 

[Rekoob]

I will give a +1 on this book. I took Nick's class last fall and is based on the book and it was great. He practices what he preaches. For those that don't know who Nick Ienatsch is he and his team run the Yamaha School of Champions. I actually preferred Nick's class over the Total control class.

Agreed.

Edit: I will also add other than writing, instructing, he also races. Oh, and he's from Eau Claire, WI... My home state so... noff said.

 

[Bilko]

Keep us posted on how things are going.

This whole thread has been quite helpful. I have now read quite a bit of the Proficient Motorcycling book by David Hough (2nd edition). While there is lot of good information, risks you are willing to take and the potential issues you can face helped drive home the message to me - far better to arrive home safely then push myself without properly anticipating the probability of what may be around the corner and knowing better the physical limits and my personal limits / capability.

I really appreciate learning the Minimum Sight Distance rule of thumb (basically divide your MPH by 10 and that's the number of seconds you need to have in order to stop by the time you reach the current edge of your sight). This has allowed me to confidently judge my speed approaching corners so I don't wonder if I'm going in too hot and have a better handle on what I can enjoyably push my speed to and still pay attention to what's going on. This was what I was really looking for - take some of the mystery / subconscious actions out of it and bring it more to the forefront of my brain. I also counter-steer more deliberately and I feel like I am gaining more control over my motorcycle and improving my odds for successfully handling unexpected surprises. I'll also have to checkout Sport Riding Techniques and other references in this thread, I am enjoying reading and discovering for myself what works or is/isn't of much concern to me (such as rake and trail - don't really care a lot about that at this point, maybe my interest will grow in that arena later on).

 

[ST1100Y]

You don't need to shuffle your weight around on the bike. Hanging off the bike means that you can lean the bike less - while this is OK on the race track, its hardly necessary on a road bike.

In fact will such only cause disturbance to a motorcycle like the ST (yep, we've tried all kinds of stupid things and stunts on those rigs over the years ;-) )

Change position of the torso towards the vertical axis of the bike will somewhat help moving the CG out/inward where needed...
Like during low speed, really narrow cornering (U-turn on a 2 lane road or parking lot, narrow switchbacks, etc...) where you leave your torso vertical and tilt only the bike below you.
In neutral speed turns your torso stays in a relaxed seating position, aligned with the bike's axis.
In really quick corners one might start to tilt the torso inward, so your head is in the line of inner handle/rear-view.
All those works fine on the outward curved OEM seat of the 1100, not so much with a pan shaped Corbin saddle (which is why I quickly got rid of it again ;-) YMMV though...)

And what cannot be repeated often enough: loosen up your neck!
Always tilt your head to keep the eyes vertical with the deck/horizon, while looking well ahead into the turn, essential for proper control of the leaning angle; fail to do so and every corner/line will end up wobbly like an octagon...

Another thing: smoothness... especially with such heavy rigs as ours.
All hard and sudden load changes with brakes, throttle, clutch, upset the suspension... front diving in, bouncing back out, CG of bike changing, etc...
Learn to go "analogue", grabbing the brakes softly, letting them go softly, pre-load the drive train slightly while still on the brakes, accelerate gently throughout the turn; if you have to shift, again gentle on clutch and throttle.
Not only is a fully settled, undisturbed suspension, therefore properly planted bike improving confidence and cornering speed, a smoother ride will cut down parts wear, thus lower service bills, it'll also make the pillion happier and more likely to join riding again in the future... ;-)

 

[MidLife]

In addition to all the info you've been given I would also mention Sport Riding Techniques by Nick Ienatsch.

Thanks for the tip. Great book. Had not heard of it.

 

[Rekoob]

This whole thread has been quite helpful. I have now read quite a bit of the Proficient Motorcycling book by David Hough (2nd edition). While there is lot of good information, risks you are willing to take and the potential issues you can face helped drive home the message to me - far better to arrive home safely then push myself without properly anticipating the probability of what may be around the corner and knowing better the physical limits and my personal limits / capability.

I really appreciate learning the Minimum Sight Distance rule of thumb (basically divide your MPH by 10 and that's the number of seconds you need to have in order to stop by the time you reach the current edge of your sight). This has allowed me to confidently judge my speed approaching corners so I don't wonder if I'm going in too hot and have a better handle on what I can enjoyably push my speed to and still pay attention to what's going on. This was what I was really looking for - take some of the mystery / subconscious actions out of it and bring it more to the forefront of my brain. I also counter-steer more deliberately and I feel like I am gaining more control over my motorcycle and improving my odds for successfully handling unexpected surprises. I'll also have to checkout Sport Riding Techniques and other references in this thread, I am enjoying reading and discovering for myself what works or is/isn't of much concern to me (such as rake and trail - don't really care a lot about that at this point, maybe my interest will grow in that arena later on).

It's a lot of info and although you aren't concerned with some of it right now you have the knowledge of it's existence and at some point will look into it more. You can only process so much information at one time. We should all strive to continue to learn and become more knowledgeable about our bikes and how/why we ride them like we do.

Enjoy!

Thanks for the tip. Great book. Had not heard of it.

Your welcome, one of my favorite.