Currently contemplating a full brake rebuild on my ST. If anyone has any experience with SS lines I'm all ears. I'm considering the kit from Galfer.
SS Lines for 1998 ST1100 ABS/TCS II worth it?
- Thread starter Widowmaker
- Start date
Slydynbye
Will ride for Pie
I didn't buy the Kit, just the Front hose that goes from the Master to the ABS unit.
Worth it, I had a 98 ABSII it helped reduce mushy Brake activation on the Front only though.
Motion pro will make them in Black to match everything else.
Worth it, I had a 98 ABSII it helped reduce mushy Brake activation on the Front only though.
Motion pro will make them in Black to match everything else.
OP
OP
Thanks for the quick reply, I flipped through the manual and noticed that replacing the lines might not as difficult as I thought, but there will be a total of 16 lines to replace lol.
I replaced all the lines on my 1996 r1100rt with stainless lines from Spiegler. They feel firmer after the swap.
Now, be careful because you could throw a lot of money and time at it for little gain.
I recently stripped and rebuilt the front calipers, pistons only cleaned, not removed, and the result was amazing.
I can only assume the thorough clean of the sliders and pistons just firmed things up. It felt a different bike with no sponginess and the lever firmed up a lot.
So make sure Everything's working correctly first and only then splash the dosh if you have too. I'm guessing you won't have too unless the hoses are buggered.
Hope it helps.
Upt'North.
I recently stripped and rebuilt the front calipers, pistons only cleaned, not removed, and the result was amazing.
I can only assume the thorough clean of the sliders and pistons just firmed things up. It felt a different bike with no sponginess and the lever firmed up a lot.
So make sure Everything's working correctly first and only then splash the dosh if you have too. I'm guessing you won't have too unless the hoses are buggered.
Hope it helps.
Upt'North.
Rubber lines deteriorate over time. I have no idea of the expected life, but after 22 years, I would think a major overhaul of the calipers and perhaps replacing a few of the obviously worn/weathered OEM lines would make a big difference. I once put SS lines on a SP1000 Moto Guzzi along w/ some new calipers. To be honest, I could not tell the difference afterward that would have been due only to the brake lines since I overhauled the entire system. I probably would not pop for SS lines again, unless I were racing and looking for every possible edge.
Keeping SS brake lines clean is another story, unless they have a clear plastic coating on top of the braid.
Keeping SS brake lines clean is another story, unless they have a clear plastic coating on top of the braid.
I have a '99 BMW R1100S, purchased 4 years ago in excellent condition, always maintained. After I'd had it about 9 months I was on a long day-ride when I noticed the front wheel acting strangely and dragging the brake. If it hadn't started raining I never would have made it back. The water let it slip just enough to get home. One of the calipers was not releasing. Couldn't even push it into the shop.
While disassembling the Brembo caliper (all the BMW manuals say "DO NOT DISASSEMBLE THE CALIPERS" but it's only 4 bolts and it's MY caliper) I found a chunk of decomposing brake line stuck in a gallery between the caliper halves that was acting as a check valve letting pressure into but not out of the caliper. After some research, I found this is a well known and common problem for most brands of bikes in this age group, 15-20-year-old machines. DOT4 brake fluid attacks paint, plastic, and these old-style, black "rubber" brake lines. The failure mode is either like mine or an aneurysm type burst that leaves you without any brakes on that wheel.
This is all the pics of the Brembo split:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/kN8PyDxEirl9iVS02
During all this, I learned several things. Galfer and Spiegler make "kits" for most bikes, BUT, they don't make the kit until you order it. There are way too many variables like different colors, extra lengths for bar-backs, etc, to stock them. But, it doesn't take them long to make a kit, even with mods you order. I got mine from Spiegler in about a week and all the lines were labeled for location making the install much easier. Spiegler also includes a plastic tool to twist the end fitting (banjo) for correct alignment. These "lines" are flexible and bend easily but do not twist at all, therefore the little tool. Both Spiegler and Galfer use 3 layer brake lines, the inner tube of PTFE (Teflon), braided stainless steel reinforcement, and an external plastic cover, either clear or colored. If the plastic cover is not used, the stainless braid will eat thru paint and plastic from vibration, bouncing, or turning the handlebars.
A Mity-Vac will greatly aid the refill and purging the air from the system.
My bike was only at 30K miles and was well maintained but there was crud in the calipers that could not be cleaned without removing the pistons. It's not the miles but the years of DOT4 that degrade the brake lines. I don't have the ST1300 service manual yet so I don't know what the Honda procedure is for servicing the calipers (BMW's "service" is replacing the calipers at $653 ea). The individual cylinders and pistons within the calipers are on a dead-end in the hydraulic systems so that when you bleed or replace the hydraulic fluid whatever is in the cylinders does not get flushed out. They are also at the bottom end of the system so anything heavier than the fluid (decomposing brake line) ends up there, but air bubbles will escape much easier.
Don't touch the sealing faces of the banjo fittings with any wrenches or pliers or you may never get that fitting to seal properly. Don't reuse the copper or aluminum banjo seals as they get work-hardened and sometimes won't seal again. Do not overtighten the banjo bolts as they are not as strong as regular bolts of that size and will break.
Replace ALL the lines that have DOT4, clutch lines, brakes, remote reservoir connections, etc.
With the tupperware, replacing the various lines, filling and bleeding, it can be an all-day job. It's not difficult but the bleeding, especially ABS systems can be very frustrating.
This was the "check valve" in my front caliper:
While disassembling the Brembo caliper (all the BMW manuals say "DO NOT DISASSEMBLE THE CALIPERS" but it's only 4 bolts and it's MY caliper) I found a chunk of decomposing brake line stuck in a gallery between the caliper halves that was acting as a check valve letting pressure into but not out of the caliper. After some research, I found this is a well known and common problem for most brands of bikes in this age group, 15-20-year-old machines. DOT4 brake fluid attacks paint, plastic, and these old-style, black "rubber" brake lines. The failure mode is either like mine or an aneurysm type burst that leaves you without any brakes on that wheel.
This is all the pics of the Brembo split:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/kN8PyDxEirl9iVS02
During all this, I learned several things. Galfer and Spiegler make "kits" for most bikes, BUT, they don't make the kit until you order it. There are way too many variables like different colors, extra lengths for bar-backs, etc, to stock them. But, it doesn't take them long to make a kit, even with mods you order. I got mine from Spiegler in about a week and all the lines were labeled for location making the install much easier. Spiegler also includes a plastic tool to twist the end fitting (banjo) for correct alignment. These "lines" are flexible and bend easily but do not twist at all, therefore the little tool. Both Spiegler and Galfer use 3 layer brake lines, the inner tube of PTFE (Teflon), braided stainless steel reinforcement, and an external plastic cover, either clear or colored. If the plastic cover is not used, the stainless braid will eat thru paint and plastic from vibration, bouncing, or turning the handlebars.
A Mity-Vac will greatly aid the refill and purging the air from the system.
My bike was only at 30K miles and was well maintained but there was crud in the calipers that could not be cleaned without removing the pistons. It's not the miles but the years of DOT4 that degrade the brake lines. I don't have the ST1300 service manual yet so I don't know what the Honda procedure is for servicing the calipers (BMW's "service" is replacing the calipers at $653 ea). The individual cylinders and pistons within the calipers are on a dead-end in the hydraulic systems so that when you bleed or replace the hydraulic fluid whatever is in the cylinders does not get flushed out. They are also at the bottom end of the system so anything heavier than the fluid (decomposing brake line) ends up there, but air bubbles will escape much easier.
Don't touch the sealing faces of the banjo fittings with any wrenches or pliers or you may never get that fitting to seal properly. Don't reuse the copper or aluminum banjo seals as they get work-hardened and sometimes won't seal again. Do not overtighten the banjo bolts as they are not as strong as regular bolts of that size and will break.
Replace ALL the lines that have DOT4, clutch lines, brakes, remote reservoir connections, etc.
With the tupperware, replacing the various lines, filling and bleeding, it can be an all-day job. It's not difficult but the bleeding, especially ABS systems can be very frustrating.
This was the "check valve" in my front caliper:
OP
OP
Thank you so much for the detailed reply, I am familiar with rebuilding calipers and installing SS lines, I've done them before. And thank you all for the replies! I was torn on either a new bike or making my current st1100 road trip reliable again, and I've decided to keep it.I have a '99 BMW R1100S, purchased 4 years ago in excellent condition, always maintained. After I'd had it about 9 months I was on a long day-ride when I noticed the front wheel acting strangely and dragging the brake. If it hadn't started raining I never would have made it back. The water let it slip just enough to get home. One of the calipers was not releasing. Couldn't even push it into the shop.
While disassembling the Brembo caliper (all the BMW manuals say "DO NOT DISASSEMBLE THE CALIPERS" but it's only 4 bolts and it's MY caliper) I found a chunk of decomposing brake line stuck in a gallery between the caliper halves that was acting as a check valve letting pressure into but not out of the caliper. After some research, I found this is a well known and common problem for most brands of bikes in this age group, 15-20-year-old machines. DOT4 brake fluid attacks paint, plastic, and these old-style, black "rubber" brake lines. The failure mode is either like mine or an aneurysm type burst that leaves you without any brakes on that wheel.
This is all the pics of the Brembo split:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/kN8PyDxEirl9iVS02
During all this, I learned several things. Galfer and Spiegler make "kits" for most bikes, BUT, they don't make the kit until you order it. There are way too many variables like different colors, extra lengths for bar-backs, etc, to stock them. But, it doesn't take them long to make a kit, even with mods you order. I got mine from Spiegler in about a week and all the lines were labeled for location making the install much easier. Spiegler also includes a plastic tool to twist the end fitting (banjo) for correct alignment. These "lines" are flexible and bend easily but do not twist at all, therefore the little tool. Both Spiegler and Galfer use 3 layer brake lines, the inner tube of PTFE (Teflon), braided stainless steel reinforcement, and an external plastic cover, either clear or colored. If the plastic cover is not used, the stainless braid will eat thru paint and plastic from vibration, bouncing, or turning the handlebars.
A Mity-Vac will greatly aid the refill and purging the air from the system.
My bike was only at 30K miles and was well maintained but there was crud in the calipers that could not be cleaned without removing the pistons. It's not the miles but the years of DOT4 that degrade the brake lines. I don't have the ST1300 service manual yet so I don't know what the Honda procedure is for servicing the calipers (BMW's "service" is replacing the calipers at $653 ea). The individual cylinders and pistons within the calipers are on a dead-end in the hydraulic systems so that when you bleed or replace the hydraulic fluid whatever is in the cylinders does not get flushed out. They are also at the bottom end of the system so anything heavier than the fluid (decomposing brake line) ends up there, but air bubbles will escape much easier.
Don't touch the sealing faces of the banjo fittings with any wrenches or pliers or you may never get that fitting to seal properly. Don't reuse the copper or aluminum banjo seals as they get work-hardened and sometimes won't seal again. Do not overtighten the banjo bolts as they are not as strong as regular bolts of that size and will break.
Replace ALL the lines that have DOT4, clutch lines, brakes, remote reservoir connections, etc.
With the tupperware, replacing the various lines, filling and bleeding, it can be an all-day job. It's not difficult but the bleeding, especially ABS systems can be very frustrating.
This was the "check valve" in my front caliper:
My plan now is to get the SS line kit, rebuild the calipers with kits from brake crafters, and add ceramic pads to all calipers as well.
I do have access to a powder coating facility, I'm going to ask how much it'll be for me to get the calipers coated once they're off the bike, I'm thinking a dark red, I had the powder ordered already for a seperate project, might look good with some red SS lines as well.
Sounds like a good plan. Looking forward to seeing the finished product with the colored lines and the powder coating
I've not done it, but have considered it. Just a little concerned about the large outlay of $$ for perhaps a relatively small return... my ST11 ABSII brakes are quite good now.
If you do this, please post the details and the outcome.
If you do this, please post the details and the outcome.
Paulcb,
That's the problem, they look good from the outside and you don't know you have a problem until you do, a front-wheel lockup or burst line (no brakes). And it never happens in your driveway. There is no "return" at all in performance, stopping power, looks, etc unless you don't update and get stranded somewhere in the middle of a ride.
I paid $210 for the Spiegler kit back then (3.5 years back), plus a quart of DOT4. I'm sure they've gone up some. But still, it is your choice. And, yours might be OK. I hope so.
When I replaced my lines on my BMW with SS Spiegler lines they were cheaper than buying new rubber lines. You'll probably find that that aren't that much more that new rubber ones from Honda. I think 20 year old rubber brake lines should replaced.
I have decided to do exactly the same on my 2000 ST1100 , based on the fact that I have had to replace every single piece of rubber elsewhere , it makes sense to replace 20 year old rubber hoses ! I will follow along with what you do and would love to hear how it all works out and what you would recommend
Can I ask, what are the benefits of ceramic pads ? thx
OP
OP
Quieter, less harsh on rotors, feel/grip is similar to semi-metallic pads.
There are 4 types of pads that I know of, Organic (carbon/kevlar compounds etc), Sintered/full metallic, (HH, etc.) Semi metallic, and ceramic.
I had Full metallic pads on all three disks. Loud as hell, no matter how much I kept them clean. Stopping power is good. I have yet to activate the ABS on the bike.
I have used Organics in the past of heavier bikes as well, they brake slower, kind of a graduated feel to them.
I have never used ceramics, they came in yesterday, fit seems to be good, however they are the most expensive pads you can get. They have less rotor wear, virtually silent, and a firm feel, not graduated like the Organics.
OP
OP
I ordered the lines, have yet to hear from Galfer. Rebuild kits and pads have arrived.
I have some red caliper paint I'll use instead of getting them powder coated.
I also got a syringe style reverse bleeder kit from Brakcrafters, they launched a how to video last week about how to fill up the lines. Forcing in the DOT4 through the bleeders will be more efficient that filling up the reservoir and pumping for eternity to fill up each system.
Do you have the LBS also ? I had a look on the Galfer website and couldn't see a way to order a hose kit for a 2000 ST1100 TCS ABS LBS, did you use custom order ? thx
OP
OP
Here is the link to the kit you need. Lbs and CBS are the same.
They didnt let me get red fittings but I'm going to call and see if that's possible.
Can I ask , what colour is your bike ? I have a metallic blue with gold metal and trying to visualise what would be the best colour lines, red sounds like it might work
OP
OP
Gloss black. No frills. I contacted galfer today and they are unable to provide colored fittings for ABS models, because there is far too many fittings required.
The colored lines are still an option. I ordered red lines with silver fittings, I'm planning to paint or powder coat the calipers red.