ST1300 Front Brake Dragging

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Seriously?
dry and dirty guide pins, dirty pistons, swollen grommets from using spray brake cleaner, bent clips, misaligned front forks, a frozen SMC, a clogged return port, stirring up crap in your clogged up SMC, and spreading it throughout the linked brake system, etc.
And either brake lever operates the left front brake caliper, which the damaged SMC happens to be attached to, and you can’t figure out why the front wheel could drag? :rofl1:
We’ve only spent a bit on the phone, but already identified a couple damaged parts.
We will know more in a couple weeks when I can get eyes on it myself.
Seriously!

Crap cannot spread "throughout the linked brake system". Front reservoir and rear reservoir are feeding two completely separate and isolated hydraulic circuits with no hydraulic connections between the two whatsoever. The link is strictly mechanical, not hydraulic.

The SMC being attached to the left caliper body has nothing to do with the ability of the caliper to work or not.

However, it looks like you are throwing enough solutions at the situation for one of them to work, but not clearly showing yet that the frozen SMC could be the culprit.
 

Igofar

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Seriously!

Crap cannot spread "throughout the linked brake system". Front reservoir and rear reservoir are feeding two completely separate and isolated hydraulic circuits with no hydraulic connections between the two whatsoever. The link is strictly mechanical, not hydraulic.

The SMC being attached to the left caliper body has nothing to do with the ability of the caliper to work or not.

However, it looks like you are throwing enough solutions at the situation for one of them to work, but not clearly showing yet that the frozen SMC could be the culprit.
I’m not one to throw solutions at problems, but rather inspect, and find the cause of the problem etc.
I just pointed out a few things that need to be inspected and ruled out.
The SMC has already failed two test procedures, and we’ve found a couple damaged parts, that he has ordered.
You should take a minute a read your service manual about some of the brake inspections etc.
You may not find the instructions to be as colorful or funny as those YouTube videos, or the great book of face.
You do know the complete test procedure for the SMC right?
Where you spin the front wheel and apply the foot pedal to check function on the front wheel etc.
 

jfheath

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The fluid from the front brake lever to the 4 front outer pistons is one hydraulic circuit. The fluid from the rear reservoir to the two front centre pistons, the SMC and all three rear pistons is another circuit. Fluid cannot pass between the two systems. They are completely separate as far as the hydraulic fluid is concerned.

But the rear brakes calipers and the front brake calipers all affect each other mechanically, and other items affect the correct operation of the entire braking system.

For example - we know about the SMC being operated when the front brakes are applied - which affects the rear caliper.
But the rear pedal also applies the front left and right centre pistons (the right one only after the pressure is increased at the pedal).
That action pushes the pistons out slightly, moves the pads across and pulls the caliper body in the opposite direction. That movement of the front caliper can affect what happens at the rear pedal. The release of the rear brake pedal affects the front centre pistons and the resulting change of pressure can be felt at the front brake lever.

If you apply the rear brake pedal and keep the pedal firmly pressed - and then apply the front brakes, the front brakes have much greater braking force than the rear and apply more pressure to the pads, moving the caliper slightly more - you can feel the slight dip in the pedal as the pads are moved slightly away from the centre piston. You get a similar effect at the lever when you apply the rear brake pedal - and it adds extra braking force with the centre piston - moving the caliper a little bit further.

Although you can bleed the two brake circuits independently (Front first), it is important to realise that other factors affect how the 3 calipers move (or not) when any of the master cylinders - front rear and secondary cause one or more of the calipers to move. That movement is also dependent on the correct alignment of the bracket and the slider pins on each caliper. The correct installation of the the bracket stopper bolt, the brake pads and the pad springs, tightening the bolts in the wrong order when installing the wheel, getting the spacers the wrong way rounf on the front wheel. The SMC pivot bearings and bolts, rusty sliders, torn boots, too much grease, badly fitting pads, worn recess for the caliper retaining clip, even wheel bearing inserted in the wrong order - are some of the possibilities. Anything that is wrong anywhere in the braking system, it is important to try to identify the reason for it - otherwise you end up treating the symptoms and not what is really causing the problem.
 
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Gus1300

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Thanks John, that helps explain it. Always knew these brakes were complicated; more than just 'the front left caliper grabbing the rotor 'activates' the SMC, which actions the rear outer pistons,' which is the simplistic way I understood it. Is there a typo above, in your first line...thought there were only two 'outer' rear pistons? (corrected the rear pistons comment, thanks John!)
 
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Mr Heath has made a tiny typo, which given the volume of brilliant content he has created about brakes is completely forgiveable; there are only two rear outer pistons and one centre, but his point is that all rear pistons are ultimately part of the foot brake circuit.
 

Igofar

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Thanks John, I’ve been tied up in the garage all day changing dirt bike tires for some neighborhood kids, while I was talking a gentleman through an SMC bleed that his shop charged a stupid amount of money for, and his brake lever was still touching the grip!
After an hour on the white courtesy phone, his lever only has 1/2 inch travel, locks up the rear wheel briskly, and releasing it completely.
Didn’t have the time to explain in such great detail, as you always do my friend.
Hope your doing well over there.
 

jfheath

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OOps (or should that be OOOps) ??

Corrected - thanks.

@Gus1300 - the SMC acts on the two rear outer pistons. The rear centre is operated only by the brake pedal via a direct line from the rear MC.

(I believe that the VFR 800 does it the opposite way round from the ST1300 - ie the VFR pedal acts on the two rear outers and the front centre, VFR SMC acts on the rear centre)

@Igofar - that was a very short retirement from doing this sort of stuff ?
I talk to much. Having taught all of my working life, I cannot stop trying to explain stuff. (But I cannot explain that. It must be hardwired into me).
 
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Igofar

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OOps (or should that be OOOps) ??

Corrected - thanks.

@Gus1300 - the SMC acts on the two rear outer pistons. The rear centre is operated only by the brake pedal via a direct line from the rear SMC.

(I believe that the VFR 800 does it the opposite way round from the ST1300 - ie the VFR pedal acts on the two rear outers and the front centre, VFR SMC acts on the rear centre)

@Igofar - that was a very short retirement from doing this sort of stuff ?
I talk to much. Having taught all of my working life, I cannot stop trying to explain stuff. (But I cannot explain that. It must be hardwired into me).
That's probably why you just felt you had to explain that :rofl1:
I'm still working/wrenching, just not 5 days a week anymore, and I'm working a little bit slower now.
:rofl1:
 
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@Gus1300 - the SMC acts on the two rear outer pistons. The rear centre is operated only by the brake pedal via a direct line from the rear SMC.
Not to be too picky here but shouldn't that be:
The rear centre is operated only by the brake pedal via a direct line from the rear SMC master cyclinder.
 
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.......rear brakes calipers and the front brake calipers all affect each other mechanically......
Never seen a malfunctioning rear caliper affecting a front caliper or vice versa. But no worry, I see where you were going with that.

Still, only mechanical interactions and feedback, no wandering SMC crap freezing the front brakes.


...... you can feel the slight dip in the pedal ......
As we all know, a pedal drop is a clear indication that the brake flush was performed by an incompetent wrencher (and yes....I can feel it!)

When bled correctly, you CAN completely eliminate the small drop ;)
:WCP1:
 

Igofar

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Never seen a malfunctioning rear caliper affecting a front caliper or vice versa. But no worry, I see where you were going with that.

Still, only mechanical interactions and feedback, no wandering SMC crap freezing the front brakes.




As we all know, a pedal drop is a clear indication that the brake flush was performed by an incompetent wrencher (and yes....I can feel it!)
There you go, I edited the wording, so even you can understand it.
Nobody implied, or intended to imply, that fluid would travel through all the systems, and cause these issues.
I'm not sure where you got that from. But the fact you've never seen a malfunctioning rear caliper affect the front caliper, or vice versa, tells me you have not worked on these brake systems a lot.
Since the OP flushed/bled the system, he may have stirred up sediment in the SMC, with would cause the two outer pistons on the front wheel to fail to work correctly, and more than likely, cause the pistons to stick, and not release the front wheel, or cause it to drag.....
In just the short time I ran the OP through some safety inspections on the phone, we found a frozen/locked up SMC, a damaged Rear caliper mounting bracket, and a few other things.
We will post all of the findings and results when the brake system has been corrected and everything is working as it should.
In the mean time, don't believe everything you think ;)
 

jfheath

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As we all know, a pedal drop is a clear indication that the brake flush was performed by an incompetent wrencher (and yes....I can feel it!)
I think that you miss the point that I was making.

You are right that air in the system will result in pedal drop as different parts of the hydraulics are out under pressure and released. I can use this to identify which section of the rear hydraulics the final air bubble is located.

There are two other kinds of pedal drop even if there is no air in the system.

1. Is caused by the delay valve. When the rear pedal is first pressed it does not allow pressure to the front right centre piston. The pressure in the delay valve actually shuts off the flow of fluid to the front right centre piston. The front right brake pad is not moved to press against the rotating disc.

A spool in the delay valve is held in place by a strong spring and it seals off the outlet so that fluid pressure cannot pass immediately to the front right centre piston.
When the pedal is pressed harder, then the strong spring yields to the greater pressure and fluid may then flow - the front right centre piston can move the pad closer to the disc. That movement / change of resistance can be felt at the pedal.

2. When braking hard only with the rear brake pedal - I'm talking about in the garage, because you probably wouldn't do that on the road - only the left and right centre pistons are operated on the front calipers.

If you then squeeze the front brake lever to increase the braking force, that can be achieved by pressing them harder against the disc than was possible with the rear pedal / front center pistons. That relieves some of the pressure on the front centre piston and this can be felt under your right foot.

Both of these effects are exaggerated if there is air in the system - but getting rid of all of the air cannot eliminate that sensation under the pedal.

I cannot get my head around the notion that stirring up the fluid in the SMC line can affect the front outer pistons. But it could affect the front centre piston, with the same end result. The banjo union for the front left centre piston and the inlet port for the SMC are linked directly by a short hose, and both are fed from the same line from the rear master cylinder.

I'll think about that some more as clearly the solution fixed the problem. But as already described when one piston is moved in the caliper, that affects the entire caliper which in turn has an effect on the other pistons.

If anyone is unsure of that, think about what would happen if, say, the top left outer piston was stuck in its bore. It would not move at all. Apply the front brakes. Only the lower piston is moved.

As pads wear the result of this is that the pad is at an angle. The caliper is not a tight fit on those slider pins, so the caliper is now at an angle. What happens to the centre piston ? The piston will be pushed in slightly as the caliper twists when the front brake is applied, resulting in a 'long pedal' .

When the centre piston is applied by the brake pedal, it applies a central force on the pads which will straighten things out again. But what happens to the lower outer piston in that case ? That gets pushed in. Soft brake lever.

Another footnote - I wouldn't have thought of this, but I saw it on a motorcycle race and heard it from an ex racer - I think it was Steve Parrish who was commentating:

Rider pulls a slight wheelie and when it comes down he gets some head shake. Front wheel oscillating, bars shaking. Not quite slapping the tank, but close. Rider recovers from that, and then comes off at the next corner.
Commentator says something to the effect of: schoolboy error - he should have pumped out his brake pistons after a headshake like that.

.
 
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There are two other kinds of pedal drop even if there is no air in the system.
We know that.

The fact remains that somebody here claims there will be no drop of any kind in a properly flushed system.

@MidLife, I’ll make you a deal, ride your bike over here, and I will flush your system correctly, if I can’t remove what you perceive as a dip in the pedal it’s FREE, if it goes away you can donate to my tip jar.
 

Igofar

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And everyone who has been through the garage, and had their brakes flushed, and found the pedal drop gone, know that too.
The offer is still good for you to ride over, and I'll be glad to make a believer out of you too ;)
 
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Nobody implied, or intended to imply, that fluid would travel through all the systems, and cause these issues.
I'm not sure where you got that from.
From here:

Since the OP flushed/bled the system, he may have stirred up sediment in the SMC, with would cause the two outer pistons on the front wheel to fail to work correctly, and more than likely, cause the pistons to stick, and not release the front wheel, or cause it to drag.....
Still don't see a plausible explanation on how wandering SMC crap could freeze the front outers.
 

Igofar

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That does not surprise me, coming from someone who kept riding his bike with the headlight hunting, and he just got used to it, rather than fix it :rofl1:
 
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