Synthetic Ester?

[ST1100Y]

Seems to be the newest hype in additives... its everywhere/with any brand... found in blended and fully synth oils...

Any chemical or stability issues to observe?
(ester oils are used in refrigeration since years, but classified being hygroscopic...)

 

[Upt' North]

Obviously just a sneaky way to start an oil thread, but what's new?
Motul have been doing it for 50 years.

 

[ST1100Y]

Motul have been doing it for 50 years.

So did others...
Since I figured some folks of knowledge here I'm asking about possible chemical reactions due condensate & blow-by?

 

[dwalby]

I'm no expert on the topic, but I seem to remember reading before that Ester is one type of the synthetic base oils (group V), not necessarily an additive. But I guess in any synthetic blend it could be considered an additive.

Base Oil Groups Explained

Almost every lubricant used in plants today started off as just a base oil. The base oil category defines what the oil is made of, how it is manufactured, and how the lubricant handles certain environments such as extreme heat.The American Petroleum Institute (API) has categorized base oils into...

www.machinerylubrication.com

 

[bdalameda]

Ester lubricants have been around for years. The type of ester base oils that are not frequently used in engines are called Polyol esters. Polyol esters are a group V base stock made from fatty acids and are almost indestructible. These are used in jet engines and in some permanently lubricated refrigeration systems. Polyol ester oils are very expensive, temperature and shear stable and naturally multi-viscous. They also are very clean burning and eliminate sludge formation as they act almost solvent like in removing carbon etc. They are also known to greatly reduce acid formation and have fairly high TBN numbers. The only oils I know that use Polyol ester base stocks are Redline, Maxima and Motul. There may be others that I don't know about.

 

[Bikeric]

I don't know about the scientific stuff, but I have used Motul semi synthetic oil for the last 20 years with no problems in my VTR 750 Honda, FZR 600 Genesis, the wife's ER500 and my ST.

 

[beemerphile]

Considering that an ST will make 300,000 miles on Wally World dinosaur juice, I can't help wondering what problem we are solving. Too much disposable income?

 

[dwalby]

Too much disposable income?

AKA, cheap insurance

I have used oil for the last 40 years in various motorcycles with no problems.

Also, my wife used to do business with the owner of Maxima oil, which is based in the San Diego area. Talked with the owner on the phone a couple times about lubrication and he'd just laugh at all the hand-wringing done here over what oil to use and how often to change it.

 

[ST1100Y]

... and in some permanently lubricated refrigeration systems.

Which is the field where the issues of hydrolysis plus possible disintegration of (conventional) seals and coatings got my attention...
Despite allegedly being in use for decades, their use/content in engine oil is getting advertised only recently...
And: unlike refrigeration systems are combustion engines anything but hermetically sealed ...

 

[dwalby]

Despite allegedly being in use for decades, their use/content in engine oil is getting advertised only recently...

I've been aware of Motul 300V since the late '80s or early '90s. Its an ester based synthetic that was readily available in most motorcycle shops back then. It was too pricey for my taste so I used the 2100/3100 instead. According to UptNorth's image it was introduced in 1971. Outside of motorcycle mags I can't say I saw it advertised, but it was commonly advertised for motorcycles in the various print publications for many years.

 

[rwthomas1]

Oil discussion appears on every vehicle related board I've ever been on, with heated discussion on the topic. That said, outside of solving something like notchy shifting, or trying to extend oil change intervals, it's rather pointless. Never heard of an engine oil related failure provided the correct type/spec of oil was used. Storm in a teacup.

RT

 

[beemerphile]

Every mortal soul yearns to show his command of a subject. Nowhere do as many avenues for this exist as in an oil thread. Wal*Mart greeters can be engineers; Indian tribesmen can be tribologists; and the lowliest of engineers can be a philosopher.

 

[dwalby]

the true entertainment value is in the vigorous discussion of a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

 

[rwthomas1]

the true entertainment value is in the vigorous discussion of a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

Yes, and second best entertainment value is the vigorous discussion in Government of unworkable solutions to problems that do exist!

 

[BakerBoy]

Every Ester I've known has been real.

Every mortal soul yearns to show his command of a subject. Nowhere do as many avenues for this exist as in an oil thread. Wal*Mart greeters can be engineers; Indian tribesmen can be tribologists; and the lowliest of engineers can be a philosopher.

+1 And it seems that these corollaries also are valid: not all engineers are Walmart greeters, not all tribologists are Indian tribesmen, and not all philosophers are engineers. And if this thread didn't exist, we'd not have had this opportunity to consider all this.

 

[bdalameda]

 

[ST1100Y]

I've been aware of Motul 300V since the late '80s or early '90s. Its an ester based synthetic that was readily available in most motorcycle shops back then.

Till recently it has never been printed in big letters on cans over here... different PR-moves I guess...

Anyway, only interested about possible implications of Ester on isolation lacquer, resin sealing or O-rings of alternators in classical motorcycles

 

[beemerphile]

Anyway, only interested about possible implications of Ester on isolation lacquer, resin sealing or O-rings of alternators in classical motorcycles

There are possible implications when using an ester base stock oil in old motors. The main chemical difference between an ester base stock and an earlier (mineral or alpha olefin base stock) is that the ester is a polar compound while the others are non-polar. This will mean that the ester compound is more capable of dissolving things and of taking water into solution. Dissolving "things" would include sludge and varnish buildup inside the motor, and could include isolation lacquer or resin seals. It would be the formulator's job to make sure that it didn't. It assumes that he predicted their presence and either tested or adapted the formulation for it. This is where the chemical nature of a complex compound or formulation can be different from the chemical nature of its basic component. I mean hell, table salt is the combination of an explosive metal with a poisonous gas. One example from oil history is the tendency of early alpha olefin synthetic oils to not have sufficient seal swell to prevent oil leakage in older motors. That is no longer a problem as it was fixed in the additive package. Curiously, it was most commonly fixed by the addition of some ester compounds. That would lead you to believe that for whatever problems you might introduce by using an ester based oil, insufficient seal swell would not likely be one of them. Another reason that ester compounds have been added to alpha olefin oils was to improve their ability to hold the additive package in suspension - part of their "dissolve things" tendency. For newer motorcycles the sweet spot in oil formulation may now be the Group IV/V blend. In the earlier days of Group IV oils, my preference was "semi-synthetic" which was a Group III/IV blend. That is still a very high performance place to be and saves some money over "full synthetic" oils. Here again, the marketers use the theoretical advantages of the more expensive product to push its sale even if (or maybe because) there isn't any improved performance to sell on.

I can see where an ester based oil might over-clean an old engine, and that the removal of varnish films might lead to excessive clearances - but it is not guaranteed to happen. There are many different formulations targeted for many different applications and some or all of them may have addressed and solved these potential problems. I don't know; neither do you; and, unless they have tested for it, neither to the manufacturers. If not tested for, then that knowledge only comes from the sea of user experiences which are being built now by the early adopters. I always try to remember that the early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese. Or, alternatively, that the pioneer is the guy with the arrow in his chest. I want to be right behind him.

TL/DR synopsis: You can use a very expensive oil that is most likely ok, or a cheaper oil that is. That is the logical hump that I am unable to get over.

 

[Chris09]

With the refrigeration and A/C systems, we had to replace the mineral or alkylbenzene [MO or AB] to poly ol ester [spelling?] [POE] when we retrofitted from CFCs or HCFCs. mineral has an affinity for those refrigerants and has good miscibility which facilitates oil return. There are a considerable variety of compatibility considerations between oils, refrigerants and materials of construction that came along with retrofitting existing systems. In that area, MO and AB seem to be okay in some proportions but where POE oil / HFC refrigerant combinations require nearly no [or at least less than 5%] residual MO. A variety of problems otherwise including lubrication problems and have observed evidence of that.
For cars I've always used the base [?] oil, cheap on sale usually from Canadian Tire branded Penzoil, Castrol or Quaker State or Canadian Tire brand [watched Esso Strathcona go from filling Esso brand to Motomaster brand, same splursher].
I bought a '77 Impala with a 350 / 4 BBL Rochester, carburated anyway, where I believe the seller when she told me that she following her brother's advise - because he sold cars... alright, I know now that I write it down I sound really gullible - she only used Mobil 1 and so I could only use that oil going forward.
I said thanks, okay, changed it over to splursh, ran it a bit to get it to [not] mix, and did a second MO change. The engine had over 100,000 miles on it and was extremely powerful [comparatively, had all the big blocks ect] and ran exceptionally smooth. It didn't go through any appreciable amount between changes and I believe it had something to do with maintenance and the synthetic oil.
What kind of concerns me is the semi-sythetic blends [or whatever they're called], I just can't imagine this being a good idea, and what happens if you get a mix of base and semi-synthetic, and there's been times when they're out of stock on the base types [sale or no sale] and all that's available is these types.
There's no getting around that product positioning is getting you to notice the abundance and pop of these semi and full synthetics while your cheap old grandpa oil only occupies a few bottom corner rows now.
Reading the labels probably says - warranty approved - buy me - pay more - I'm better, but I'm sure some of the members here must have raised an eyebrow when these blends became popular. Goes for Cars and Bikes. Wondering what others think, why all of a sudden [or maybe closer to everything else I've been ignoring - the last couple decades] is it okay to mix base with synthetics, and brag about it?

 

[red one]

With the refrigeration and A/C systems, we had to replace the mineral or alkylbenzene [MO or AB] to poly ol ester [spelling?] [POE] when we retrofitted from CFCs or HCFCs. mineral has an affinity for those refrigerants and has good miscibility which facilitates oil return. There are a considerable variety of compatibility considerations between oils, refrigerants and materials of construction that came along with retrofitting existing systems. In that area, MO and AB seem to be okay in some proportions but where POE oil / HFC refrigerant combinations require nearly no [or at least less than 5%] residual MO. A variety of problems otherwise including lubrication problems and have observed evidence of that.
For cars I've always used the base [?] oil, cheap on sale usually from Canadian Tire branded Penzoil, Castrol or Quaker State or Canadian Tire brand [watched Esso Strathcona go from filling Esso brand to Motomaster brand, same splursher].
I bought a '77 Impala with a 350 / 4 BBL Rochester, carburated anyway, where I believe the seller when she told me that she following her brother's advise - because he sold cars... alright, I know now that I write it down I sound really gullible - she only used Mobil 1 and so I could only use that oil going forward.
I said thanks, okay, changed it over to splursh, ran it a bit to get it to [not] mix, and did a second MO change. The engine had over 100,000 miles on it and was extremely powerful [comparatively, had all the big blocks ect] and ran exceptionally smooth. It didn't go through any appreciable amount between changes and I believe it had something to do with maintenance and the synthetic oil.
What kind of concerns me is the semi-sythetic blends [or whatever they're called], I just can't imagine this being a good idea, and what happens if you get a mix of base and semi-synthetic, and there's been times when they're out of stock on the base types [sale or no sale] and all that's available is these types.
There's no getting around that product positioning is getting you to notice the abundance and pop of these semi and full synthetics while your cheap old grandpa oil only occupies a few bottom corner rows now.
Reading the labels probably says - warranty approved - buy me - pay more - I'm better, but I'm sure some of the members here must have raised an eyebrow when these blends became popular. Goes for Cars and Bikes. Wondering what others think, why all of a sudden [or maybe closer to everything else I've been ignoring - the last couple decades] is it okay to mix base with synthetics, and brag about it?

Funny you should ask about mixing base oil and synthetic oil. I'm thinking you mean a semi synthetic oil or a blend. Since I have used Pennzoil's regular yellow bottle oil since my car was new I'm going to have to not use it anymore. Since they now make only a full synthetic and a blend. My next oil change will be a blend. About full synthetic oil we used it in my wife's SUV and changed it at 6K mile interval's. Changed the valve cover gaskets last week and at 107,000 miles the top of the motor was looking new. No sludge, No brown dark oil coating on the camshafts or deposits under the cam buckets and no scuff marks on the lobes of the cams. Everything nice and shiny. My 227,000 mile Corolla needs new valve cover gaskets also and since its been running regular oil it probably won't be as clean.