Where did the recommendation for Honda M-77 Assembly Paste start?

[Upt' North]

By the way if anyone wants to try out a test on the splines meshing it can be done with engineers blue, otherwise called Russian blue. It is done when rebuilding differentials to see if the mesh is towards the heel or the toe, etc. I'm not volunteering.
Upt'North

 

[Upt' North]

Had another thought.
If the new GW (oh god not another GW thread) has a similar set up, if, then the service manual should clear this up once and for all. I can't see it referring to 60 as it's defunct. Hopefully it will say 77, and if not as well as humble pie, I'll be buying some new lube.
Upt'North.

 

[Kevin_56]

otherwise called Russian blue.

Prussian blue, or Dykem by trade name.

 

[Andrew Shadow]

Well you guys have sucked me in to the rabbit hole too! I did a little searching and came up with a couple of old Honda service bulletins that reference Moly 60.

This service bulletin would seem to indicate a similar composition between Honda CV joint grease and Moly 60 as someone already stated in an earlier post in this thread. It states that Moly 60 can be used as a substitute for CV joint grease. If Moly 60 can replace CV joint grease does that mean that CV joint grease is a suitable replacement for Moly 60? I have no idea.
Honda Service Bulletin 12-033.

Curiously enough another Honda service bulletin states that Moly 77 "polishes more than it lubricates". It does not state to use M77 for high pressure/high temperature applications or for use on gears. This description would indicate that M77 is inadequate for spline lubrication. This same service bulletin does state to use Moly 60 for gears however.
Honda Service Bulletin 99-030.

Both of these are from 2012. I did not find anything more recent.
I also could not find any technical reference (i.e. service bulletin) from Honda stating that M77 is to be used in place of Moly 60.

Glad that I could clear all of this up!

 

[ST Gui]

Glad that I could clear all of this up!

!

 

[Jim Van]

So, I will continue to over lube my spline and look for some slinging to verify there is plenty of lube in there, as BakerBoy has explained.

BakerBoy : Please let us know if you spin a driveshaft on your R1200RT. I know two Riders who have had that happen on their 2016 RT's last year.

 

[Igofar]

Thanks for the memos. It may replace the Molly 60 in THAT application, however, just like the OEM manual for my CRV or ELEMENT, the new stuff was called for where brake caliper grease is used.

 

[Upt' North]

I had noted previously that in a GW workshop manual ( Honda's own ) Moly 60 was only specified for the US of A, and from memory a Dow Corning product was recommended for European bikes. I've never come across that name anywhere else, maybe it's a US product but if so why wasn't it recommended for the US too? Maybe they never intended to sell Moly 60 in other markets but of course the world is now one big shopping mall.
But just to clarify it does state that the properties of 77 do allow it to be used on gears and prevents fretting.
Keep lubing.
Upt'North

 

[Jim Van]

Well you guys have sucked me in to the rabbit hole too! I did a little searching and came up with a couple of old Honda service bulletins that reference Moly 60.

This service bulletin would seem to indicate a similar composition between Honda CV joint grease and Moly 60 as someone already stated in an earlier post in this thread. It states that Moly 60 can be used as a substitute for CV joint grease. If Moly 60 can replace CV joint grease does that mean that CV joint grease is a suitable replacement for Moly 60? I have no idea.
Honda Service Bulletin 12-033. Snip ........


I also could not find any technical reference (i.e. service bulletin) from Honda stating that M77 is to be used in place of Moly 60.

Glad that I could clear all of this up!

I would say, no because CV joint grease has a much lower moly content. But a person could mix some CV joint grease and M77 paste to come up with about a 60% moly content with a smoother consistency than straight M77 for greater lubricity and less "polishing". I may even mix a little CV joint grease with the Jet-Lube 50 I bought recently. That will extend the pound of Jet-Lube 50 a bit and I'll be able to eventually pass on what is left to my heirs - gotta plan ahead.

 

[Catdriver]

See what you started here, IgoFar? Almost as bad as an oil thread!

 

[dwalby]

I'll be able to eventually pass on what is left to my heirs - gotta plan ahead.

good thinking Jim, but I think its standard practice for estate planning to clearly specify who inherits the moly, so most lawyers are going to have that covered.

 

[Igofar]

I guess I'm gonna have to figure out what to do with my remaining two dozen tubes of Moly 60

 

[Jim Van]

Friendly Suggestion : You could leave a few tubes to your local STOC group or Gold Wing club. They would love you for it, and maybe even place flowers on your gravesite. And leave a tube in your saddle bag for the next owner. Your ST deserves to have her splines kept nice and perky, too.

BTW, I mixed up a batch of Polaris "high moly content" u-joint grease and Jet-Lube 50 mixed 1:3 respectively and I like the final look and consistency. Should have at least a 40% moly content. Can't wait to lube up those splines in the spring when I pull the swing arm and replace the alternator and u-joint.

 

[Jim Van]

good thinking Jim, but I think its standard practice for estate planning to clearly specify who inherits the moly, so most lawyers are going to have that covered.

Doug : Thanks for the reminder. The next time I have my trust reviewed, I will have the moly added to my pour-over will.

 

[Igofar]

Was surfing a BMW site and found this posting: Honda Moly 60 (the go to lube for clutch and driveshaft splines) has been discontinued.

It has been superceeded by Honda M77, but that is not the same animal. There is no listing on the tube or any listing of it that states the % of Moly content (although you might guess it to be 77%, but you might be wrong). The only application that I have found listed for it is for brake caliper assembly on Honda Civics. NOTHING about splines, nothing about motorcycles.

The temp. rating for the M77 is 450 deg. The temp rating for Moly 60 is 750 deg. in a sliding application and 1500 deg. in a non sliding application. DEFINITELY NOT the same animal.

The Honda forums have been abuzz for several months with people wondering what they are going to go to.

The local Honda dealers knew nothing about it until I bought them out of Moly 60. The parts guys saw in there computers that it was NLA. When I asked their service depts. what they were going to use once their tube in the shop ran out, they didn't have a clue. So much for Honda Service Bulletins.


....it's not like any of the Honda service tech's put anything on other than grease anyway

 

[st1300r]

molykote m-77 is registered trade mark to DOW.
random interwebs msds
http://www.paisleyproducts.com/content/files/content/msds/AVDCM77_msds_9_9_2014.pdf

which says for new jersey disclosure;

CAS Number Wt % Component Name
1317-33-5 55.0 - 75.0 Molybdenum disulfide
63148-52-7 15.0 - 35.0 Dimethyl, phenylmethyl siloxane, trimethyl-terminated
7620-77-1 3.0 - 7.0 12-Hydroxy lithium stearate
None 1.0 - 5.0 Vendor proprietary ingredient

If you believe that threebond moly 60 is honda moly 60 than iirc this is petroleum based grease carrier so now the question is what kind of rubber is used for the spline o-rings and is it compatible with whatever silicone flavor Dimethyl, phenylmethyl siloxane, trimethyl-terminated is?

 

[Jim Van]

Good Point !!

But I must be slipping. Why didn't I think of that ??

And, isn't it interesting that M77 isn't necessarily 70% moly. It's between 55% and 75%. Anyone want to bet the chances are it's closer to 55% than 75% ??

 

[jfheath]

molykote m-77 is registered trade mark to DOW.

I agree that Molykote is a registered trade mark of Dow Corning. I can't find anything that says that M-77 is a registered trade mark. (I only assume that the Dow M77 is the same as the Honda M77. I do not know for certain - but some vendors refer to the Honda product as Honda Molykote M77. But vendors will say anything !

Dow's sheets say that their M-77 is for low to medium pressures:
"Suitable for lubrication points with low to moderate loads and low speeds which are subjected to water and extreme temperatures"
Used successfully on metal/metal combinations with frictional and contact surfaces, brake anchor plates and the brake pistons of disc brakes
Source - here. Look for the product data sheets - Automotive and Transportation - bottom right of the page. Pop-up blocker my trap it.

When I contacted Dow Corning in June and described the application for the splines of the ST1300 and referred to the M77, they said that: their Molykote M77 paste is Silicone Based. Mainly, mineral based oil products like G-n Plus are used for the situations that I described for the final drive of the ST1300.

When I dig deeper into the sites that quote Honda M77 as being a replacement for the Honda Moly 60, not one of them say that it will replace the Moly 60 for the splines. It seems (as Larry said in his first post) that the Moly 60 was used for the back of brake pads, and for that, the M77 does seem to be a good replacement.

I emailed Honda UK and the chap consulted before replying. They do not use M77 for the splines. They use Motul Tech Grease 300 - the spec of which I reproduced in post #33.

 

[dwalby]

Good Point !!

But I must be slipping. Why didn't I think of that ??

And, isn't it interesting that M77 isn't necessarily 70% moly. It's between 55% and 75%. Anyone want to bet the chances are it's closer to 55% than 75% ??

Jim, I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say "why didn't I think of that??" you posted a link to a M77 MSDS sheet earlier in the thread which showed the moly content. Or are you referring to something else?

edit: here it is (from post #78):

"So, how do we know Honda M-77 assembly paste contains only 20% moly ? Any spec sheet available ? Some guy on the CTX1300 Forum thinks it's 77% moly. ( I don't ). A person on this Forum thinks Honda M-77 assembly paste and Dow Corning M-77 are the same ( I think that may be true ).

The DC spec sheet says DC M-77 has a moly content between 50% & 70 %. (NOTE: the DC spec sheet was a link in your original post, it didn't copy over)

I'm beginning to think Honda M-77 Assembly paste has more than a 20 % moly content because most moly "pastes" contain a much higher moly content than 20% , so maybe it is the same as DC M-77. And at $20 for 2.65 oz. , it better have."

 

[Jim Van]

Doug : You gotta stay on your toes better, buddy ! :|

What I didn't think of was the very last statement st1300r made in his post : " so now the question is what kind of rubber is used for the spline o-rings and is it compatible with whatever silicone flavor Dimethyl, phenylmethyl siloxane, trimethyl-terminated is? "

Very profound and insightful, wasn't it ? Gotta give st1300r all the credit for that question !!