YouTuber Says: The EPA is Ruining Motorcycles

[aniwack]

 

[tpasco1995]

Fortnite's video is... Yeah. It's missing the mark.

I first saw it pop up on the Advriders subreddit. Top comment on that post was someone arguing that we have become too complacent with the government making laws for helmets and mandatory liability insurance. That kind of kicks off the audience he's catering to.

Having gone ahead and watched the video, he just doesn't make the point he claims to be making.

The new TransAlp was developed about five years ago, and Honda held off on production and release due to concerns it would eat Africa Twin sales. By the time they decided to release the production, noise rules that had been scheduled for a decade went into place in the US.

Well, it didn't pass American requirements. Because they delayed. Honda's answer for the US-spec bike was to de-tune the engine with an ECU re-flash.

What they *could* have done was to put a different muffler on it. But in the interest of avoiding additional parts sourcing, they made the bike worse with software.

It's not an EPA or DOT or NHTSA thing. It's a Honda thing. They won't release the $16,000 NT1100 here because they want people to spend $40K on a Goldwing. They won't make the $10,000 TransAlp good because they want people to spend $18,000 on the good Africa Twin.

It's infuriating that Honda has decided not to give us options. Not because "the government won't let them" but because they're so convinced that it will hurt their sales to field sport tourers and smaller dual sports.

 

[Upt' North]

I don't just think it's because they won't or can't be bothered.
This market is tiny in global terms, why bother when you can sell millions of 125's in Asia?
Upt.

 

[tpasco1995]

I don't just think it's because they won't or can't be bothered.
This market is tiny in global terms, why bother when you can sell millions of 125's in Asia?
Upt.

If that were the case, they wouldn't make them in the first place.

The new XR750L is sold without the ECU de-tune in the EU and has been for a year and a half already. The launch in the US took that bike and made it worse, so now nobody will actually buy it, and they'll use that to justify not selling good mid-range dual-sports in the future. It becomes a tiny market because they've decided to make it a tiny market.

If they bothered to make it for the European market, they must have anticipated enough sales to pay off development costs and run a margin. There's no excuse not to do it correctly.

This is ultimately the same company that decided America didn't need a Civic Type R until it was five generations on. "Nobody will buy a turbocharged 5-speed Civic... Oh no it's selling for $45,000 hurry make more." They did everything they could to get people to want to go for an ILX or an Accord Sport when they had a "fun" car at the ready for two decades. When they knew Americans were importing old Integra and Civic engines like crazy.

They shoot themselves in the foot over and over despite selling a ton of bikes stateside. Because they've convinced themselves they can make an upsell. There's never going to be a DCT option on the Rebel 500 because then "nobody would buy the Rebel 1100", except nobody buys the Rebel 1100 because it's twice the cost of the 500. Freaking braindead from a marketing standpoint.

 

[red one]

EPA's been doing it for years. But why worry I've heard if the American government gets their way by 2027 only a hybrid vehicle or electric will be able to meet vehicle emissions will be able to be sold here in the USA.

 

[Upt' North]

Yes, but the new TransAlp sells well in EU markets, it wouldn't in the states, or I don't think it would.
It would be seen as a small adventure bike, full stop. Where as in the EU and I include the UK in that it is seen as a different bike for different markets/people.
You've only got to suggest a chain drive bike on here and you can hear the sharp intake of breath, it happened with the NT1100, "nice bike but it's got a chain"!
The market has to embrace change or why would they be bothered to sell it in your back yard.
I'm sure if everyone on this site wrote to Honda America and pre ordered the TransAlp with a new upgraded silencer they'd consider it. But it ain't gonna happen.
Upt.

 

[SupraSabre]

All VERY GOOD reasons for me to stick with my 12 & 20 year old ST1300s, and have extra parts on hand!

 

[DannoXYZ]

The new TransAlp was developed about five years ago, and Honda held off on production and release due to concerns it would eat Africa Twin sales. By the time they decided to release the production, noise rules that had been scheduled for a decade went into place in the US.

Well, it didn't pass American requirements. Because they delayed. Honda's answer for the US-spec bike was to de-tune the engine with an ECU re-flash.

What they *could* have done was to put a different muffler on it. But in the interest of avoiding additional parts sourcing, they made the bike worse with software.

It takes A LOT to meet U.S. noise regulations. Part of that is anticipation of future upgrades that increases noise. Pretty much everyone immediately puts in louder muffler right away. That's why different muffler is often not used to lower noise compared to EU models, too easy to defeat.

Typically Honda meets noise-regulations with combination of these changes from EU versions (exact combination varies by model):

- more restrictive intake on airbox, smaller diameter ducts or lined with foam to reduce diameter
- more restrictive (and quieter) air-filtre
- different length velocity-stacks
- different cam-shafts with less high-end flow
- re-programmed VTEC switching RPM on models that have them
- smaller valves in head
- larger muffler with more reversion chambers
- ECU, finally, is programmed for optimum performance with above mods

Losing just 7hp (8%) power on TransAlp is really nothing. Honda's gotten lots better at EPA game. Couple years ago I was looking at CBR1000RR-SP and U.S. version was crippled -48hp from EU versions!!! Similarly Kawi's much anticipated ZX-4RR last year was down about -20hp. So Honda's latest offering isn't anywhere nearly as crippled as earlier bikes. We actually don't know if it's only ECU mods that was used until someone gets their hands on TransAlp and tears it apart to reverse-engineer the mods. Often you can just compare part# in parts-book and buy different parts from EU models to restore full-performance.

BTW - Harleys in Europe are whisper quiet and they don't leak oil!!!

 

[Oldbikefixr]

Fortnite's video is... Yeah. It's missing the mark.

I first saw it pop up on the Advriders subreddit. Top comment on that post was someone arguing that we have become too complacent with the government making laws for helmets and mandatory liability insurance. That kind of kicks off the audience he's catering to.

Having gone ahead and watched the video, he just doesn't make the point he claims to be making.

The new TransAlp was developed about five years ago, and Honda held off on production and release due to concerns it would eat Africa Twin sales. By the time they decided to release the production, noise rules that had been scheduled for a decade went into place in the US.

Well, it didn't pass American requirements. Because they delayed. Honda's answer for the US-spec bike was to de-tune the engine with an ECU re-flash.

What they *could* have done was to put a different muffler on it. But in the interest of avoiding additional parts sourcing, they made the bike worse with software.

It's not an EPA or DOT or NHTSA thing. It's a Honda thing. They won't release the $16,000 NT1100 here because they want people to spend $40K on a Goldwing. They won't make the $10,000 TransAlp good because they want people to spend $18,000 on the good Africa Twin.

It's infuriating that Honda has decided not to give us options. Not because "the government won't let them" but because they're so convinced that it will hurt their sales to field sport tourers and smaller dual sports.

Just wondering if Honda, like many of our other industries that were once established and operated by fans/participants, is being run by the proverbial bean counters and visionless, opportunistic, interchangeable, corporation resellers.

 

[tpasco1995]

Just wondering if Honda, like many of our other industries that were once established and operated by fans/participants, is being run by the proverbial bean counters and visionless, opportunistic, interchangeable, corporation resellers.

I think so much of it is the relative autonomy the different divisions run with.

American Honda Motor Corporation designed and engineered the 10th generation Civic sedan and coupe; Honda UK designed and engineered the hatchback. They were required to share as many components as possible, which is wild given there's an ocean in the way of the development teams.

Average American spending on a car is higher than in Europe, so they make the lower-tier cars less enticing to drive sales upward, rather than making the cars at the bottom good (I'm looking at you, Honda Fit...). They ignore the mid-market a lot too, which really sucks. I want good mid-market offerings; Toyota knows how to do it. The lower-trim Camry is an EXCELLENT car, but they're also fielding cars like the Venza, the last and current generations of Prius, the Tacoma, the Rav4 (the fact that it's essentially their entry SUV is incredible to me) and knocking it out of the park at every trim level.

Honda's management in America constantly refuses to sell products that we'd buy. They cut off Accord and Civic wagons, they cut off the ST or anything like it, they don't give us entry-level adventure bikes that are worth buying. It's wild.

(Fun fact: I used to work for Honda of America Manufacturing, right next door to the former motorcycle plant)

 

[Larry Fine]

They won't release the $16,000 NT1100 here because they want people to spend $40K on a Goldwing.

What's to stop someone from buying one there and shipping it here?

 

[DannoXYZ]

What's to stop someone from buying one there and shipping it here?

Won’t meet EPA/DOT regulations. You’d have to go through certification process which can be co$tly... if even possible.

Bill Gate’s Porsche 959 sat impounded on shipping dock when it landed. He couldn’t find way to do all testing required for certification. One of which was a crash test! So crash test only 959 on U.S. soil to prove it’s crash-worthy so you can now drive your totaled car on U.S. roads… He gave up after 10-yrs and sold it to some collectors museum.

Ferrari did get their F40 certified. Very first carbon-fibre car to be road-legal in U.S. Results of testing showed they needed larger bumpers, higher ride-height and catalytic converters for U.S. models. Interestingly enough, it made exact same power as E.U. versions. Slightly slower due to extra weight.. U.S. versions also needed AC and radio installed!

 

[Willsmotorcycle]

What's to stop someone from buying one there and shipping it here?

Just a list of requirements that needs to be met. Below are the EPA Regs. Maybe buying a US version and then replace or flash the ECU with the desired one.

How to Import a Motorcycle: Rules and Regulations To Know

Knowing how to import a motorcycle requires a deep understanding of rules and regulations set by U.S. agencies. We’ll be your guide through these requirements.

usacustomsclearance.com

The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) requires imported motorcycles to meet their emission requirements. Guidelines from the Department of Transportation (DOT) require all motorcycles to abide by safety standards. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) will require essential import documents for motorcycles to make entry.


1. EPA Regulations
For a motorcycle to enter the country, importers will need to submit an EPA Standard Form 3520-1 to the CBP. This document contains information about the vehicle and the port where it will arrive.

Next, buyers will need to determine if they’re importing their motorcycle permanently or temporarily. They also have to find out if their motorcycle is a U.S. version or non-U.S. version vehicle. A U.S. version vehicle is one that’s manufactured in conformity with EPA emission regulations that are outlined in the Clean Air Act (CAA).

Proof of CAA conformity for permanent import must include:

• A manufacturer-equipped EPA emissions label on the frame of the motorcycle
• A letter from the U.S. representative of the manufacturer that states the vehicle was made to be a U.S. certified version or was converted to conform to EPA guidelines

A non-U.S. version vehicle can only permanently enter the country under the following circumstances:

• The importing individual must have a written letter of exemption from the EPA
• The importer must be an Independent Commercial Importer (ICI) operating as a private business in the U.S. and holding an EPA certificate of conformity for the motorcycle

If an ICI is bringing the motorcycle into the country, they’ll modify and test the vehicle to ensure it meets the EPA’s emission regulations. Temporary motorcycle imports might be eligible for exemption from EPA regulations.

There are five distinct situations where this will be permitted.

• Repair and alteration
• Display
• Testing
• Diplomats
• Nonresidents

In either of these cases, importers will need written approval for the exemption from the EPA prior to the motorcycle arriving in the country.

Motorcycles that were originally manufactured as a U.S. version vehicle and haven’t been modified or altered may enter the country without approval or a Customs Bond. However, importers will still need to submit an EPA Form 3520-1 and declare code “B” on the document.

If the U.S. version vehicle was modified or altered, then a bond will be required. Though CBP sets the amount, the EPA will recommend the bond be equal to the current market value of the vehicle.

The motorcycle also has to undergo restoration to comply with EPA standards it may no longer meet. When submitting the EPA Form 3520-1 for this kind of bike, importers will need to declare code “F”.

 

[DannoXYZ]

In addition to EPA/DOT/CBP hoops you have to jump through, there’s also DHS as well.

 

[Sadlsor]

Just a list of requirements that needs to be met. Below are the EPA Regs. Maybe buying a US version and then replace or flash the ECU with the desired one.

Good information.
All of that inspecting and paperwork has contributed to a LOT of government jobs in the USA.
Ever stop to consider how much "environmental protection" has actually been realized, in exchange for all of this cost and man-hours?
I submit it's not, in all its accumulation, even a fraction of what would be required to even move the needle on the positively-protective scale.
Yet it continues, and it grows with every spending bill passed in DC.
What is gained?
And what is lost?
Ryan is frequently a target of criticism, but the real criticism needs to be directed elsewhere in my never-to-be-humble opinion.

 

[Larry Fine]

Yet it continues, and it grows with every spending bill passed in DC.

To paraphrase Simon and Garfunkel, "Congress like a cancer grows . . . "

 

[tpasco1995]

What's to stop someone from buying one there and shipping it here?

It's not eligible for import for 25 years.

Not even that it won't meet DOT regulations (which isn't that difficult for motorcycles and is the reason why there are 7,000,000 manufacturers of small and electric bikes now) but because the manufacturer hasn't certified the vehicle meets DOT regulations. It's illegal because Honda doesn't sell it here.

 

[Daboo]

EPA's been doing it for years. But why worry I've heard if the American government gets their way by 2027 only a hybrid vehicle or electric will be able to meet vehicle emissions will be able to be sold here in the USA.

The purpose of the EPA is to ban your use of motorcycles.

Edit: I watched the video again. Some quick impressions:

• Manufacturers have been holding back features for years. Back in the 1960-80s, huge cars were the cars everyone wanted. Bigger was better. I liked smaller cars, like the Ford Falcon. That was about as much of a bare basic car as you could get, and I wondered...why don't manufacturer's put in more comfortable seats and better trim to make them nicer? Because if they did, you'd be buying that cheaper car with less of a profit margin and no one would want the huge cars. Why did the manufacturer's change? Probably because the consumer wanted the smaller, but much nicer cars that the Europeans were importing.
• Motorcycles are becoming commodity items. The differences between one bike and the other are getting less and less. If the Honda Transalp is getting to be more and more like a lot of other bikes...well, there's not much difference between any of them. Everyone wants a lower weight bike...it adds to the performance of the bike, and when you're not riding it is far easier to push around the garage. You don't want to be the model that's twenty pounds heavier than everyone else. So put an 800-900 cc engine in a steel trellis frame, add wheels fore and aft, with a windshield and handlebars...there's not a lot of variability.
• As far as the EPA goes...what I wrote above still applies. The EPA worker is thinking, "Motorcycles are unsafe. They are noisy. And while I'm sitting in traffic, they are zipping right by me! What right do they have to do that?!?!" So the unelected EPA worker can't ban them outright, but they can force regulations on the manufacturers to the point you won't find it fun or worthwhile to buy.
• And as far as the video as a whole goes...FortNine had to find something to post a video on...so why not complain about this?

Chris

 

[the Ferret]

As far as the EPA goes...what I wrote above still applies. The EPA worker is thinking, "Motorcycles are unsafe. They are noisy. And while I'm sitting in traffic, they are zipping right by me! What right do they have to do that?!?!" So the unelected EPA worker can't ban them outright, but they can force regulations on the manufacturers to the point you won't find it fun or worthwhile to buy.

Personally, I think that scenario is a stretch.

Maybe if they were coming down on just motorcycles, but they're not. They are coming down on all ice and diesel vehicles and equipment.

Some company that was re-flashing diesel trucks got caught and fined like a million dollars.

Volkswagon got fined what ended up as being $18 billion over their EPA testing cheating devices on their cars.

2 guys that used to do ECU reflashes on CB 1100's and other motorcycles (Guhl's is one of them) have stopped, due to threat of fines from the EPA, and I 've heard California may be banning re-flashing on all ECUs.

We have to face it, like it or not, the govt is becoming serious about air pollution, and we will not be able to continue to pollute as much as we want, without repercussions

For my money my modern motorcycles are light years ahead of the motorcycles I owned even 20 years ago, while being gentler on the earth, and that's a good thing.

 

[Sadlsor]

We have to face it, like it or not, the govt is becoming serious about air pollution, and we will not be able to continue to pollute as much as we want, without repercussions

Personally, I think that scenario is a stretch.
That's what the government tells us, and would have us believe.
Many people do, but I don't.