ST1100 won't start when hot

schlep1967

Bill
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To the "boiling" issue. Since you found the cracked fuel line that eventually leaked all over your floor and replaced it the "boiling" stopped. Maybe it was not boiling but drawing air in through the cracks in the fuel line and the bowl was just where the air bubbles had the space to come above the fuel. Maybe this is not a heat issue as much as an air leak into the fuel system issue. I would replace all the fuel lines including new clamps to make sure. Should not be all the expensive to do.
 
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maubur
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Thanks John and Bill for your continued support. As I stated before, I changed plugs and I'm sure the issue with the #3 lead is unrelated to the non starting problem. I just failed to put the cap snug into the plug. Regarding the vacuum lines, at the begining of the thread you'll find pics of one or two that were torn. I was hoping this was the cause for it not starting but I replaced these hoses early on with new ones, and that didn't help at all. Heck, the bike was running fine even with the torn vacuum hoses. On to the "boiling" issue. I fail to understand why an air leak into the carbs would only interfere with the engine starting when it is at the upper end of it's temperature window. As long as it is running far from standstills and in reasonable temps, it will start every time and run flawlessly. Hit a traffic jam and it all goes haywire, but the jam has to be real tight. Also I've seen the boiling with my own eyes and way back in this thread there is a video link to prove it. I only wish someone could shed some light on the possibility that the hose from the carbs to the canister being pinched or blocked, could have something to do with this behavior. Replacing it means pulling the carbs and tank and if it gets to that, I might as well put the added insulation beneath the carbs. I'd like to hear some more feedback before I start taking things appart. On another matter, can anyone tell me why pressing "enter" on my keyboard doesn't skip to a next paragraph in this forum? Continous posts as this one are awful to read.
 
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Have you checked the valve clearances lately ? Maybe they are tight and when the bike gets really hot, you are losing compression. Sounds crazy, but I had this problem with my Moto Guzzi. The bike would start OK when cold, run OK down the road, but when I slowed downed and stopped, it would stall and wouldn't start until it cooled down.
 
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"When I got to the #3 lead, as soon as I pulled it, it suddenly reved right up and reached a normal idle, no throttle. I guess that specific plug lead was not snug to the new plug. Bike has been running great since and I'm guessing it will continue to do so as long as I stay away from traffic and hot weather."

Maubur,
As I am sure you are aware the plug wires on these machines have a resistor in the cap for each spark plug. The fact that the bike was barely running until you pulled the #3 plug is a sign that for some reason the #3 plug was pulling all the juice to that one cylinder and not letting any of the available electricity go to the other 3. When you pulled it the other sparks plugs could now operate. Before you pulled it the bike was trying run on one cylinder and that one was getting incorrect voltage. Since resistors can be susceptible to heat I would look at that being an issue. If the problem comes up again, pull the #3 wire and try to start it. if it starts then you know you have a bad wire.
 
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maubur
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Great idea C130. I'll pull the plug next time this happens and let you know how this goes. Not hard at all. Any other ideas?

Hey, shift + enter does work! Thanks!

I confess I've never checked valve clearances. Although 20 yrs old, the bike has less than 40k miles and my mechanic says if valves aren't making a racket, better leave them alone. They do click a bit more when hot. Could this be it? Not easy to find shims this side of the equator.
 
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I confess I've never checked valve clearances. Although 20 yrs old, the bike has less than 40k miles and my mechanic says if valves aren't making a racket, better leave them alone. They do click a bit more when hot. Could this be it? Not easy to find shims this side of the equator.
Can you order parts from dealers in the states ? Or get a "kit" with an assortment of shims from one of the MC suppliers on the net , like Bike Bandit, or Motor Cycle Superstore, etc . ?? BTW, Honda says the clearances should be checked every 16K miles. Maybe other posters can tell you typically how often they need adjustment. I have had my ST1100 for only 15K miles. I checked the clearances right after I got it, so I'm about due for another check. They were dead on at that first check, so I'm curious to see how much they have changed over the last 15K miles. Sounds to me like your mechanic may have it backwards on the ST1100. As the valves " sink into " the seats , the clearance should decrease, not increase ( and get noisy ).
 
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CruSTy

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CARBON CANISTER and FUEL Boiling. First I have never worked on and ST1100. I have however worked on thousands of Honda cars and as an OLD guy skilled in Carburetors back into the 50s I can assure you that a blocked canister or even a sink trap kink in the vent hose can cause this type of issue. Here's why. When you shut of a hot engine the engine heat rises and increased the temp in the float bowls and consequently the vapor pressure there also. Normally the bowl is vented inside the air cleaner side of the carb providing balanced air pressure on the fuel to make the venturi function to draw fuel from the bowl.. When the engine is off the bowls are designed to vent to the carbon canister to reduce hydrocarbon emissions. That's a good thing until the system malfunctions. If there is any restriction in the bowl vent vapor system the increase in vapor pressure will literally belch out ALL of the fuel that was in the float bowl seriously flooding the engine. Seen this many times in Honda cars prior to Fuel injection. The canister itself is normally a much overlooked scheduled maintenance item on older cars. Hope you get to the root of this. If there is an easy way to disconnect the vent hoses at the carbs or canister u may be able to validate my theory.
 
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CruSTy

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I looked at the parts fische and see lots of hoses that look like bowl venting/evaporative emissions but they are all labeled "tube" Maybe someone here has a shop manual that covers the evaporative emission system in better detail. It would normally only cause the bowls to vent to the canister when the engine is off but if it malfunctions or the canister is bad it will cause flooding after engine shut off.


On my '98 ST1100 , the float bowls are vented directly to the atmosphere.
 
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maubur
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On to a third installment. First of all I apologize but I had not seen the posts after Oct 18. I'm thinking Chuck hit the jackpot but on to that later.


I spent a lot of time away from home in cold Germany and then even colder Chicago. Obviously the bike had long rests but kept starting right up and running reasonably well when needed. I kept well away of still traffic to the point that I once parked and waited almost an hour for a traffic jam to subside before getting back on the road. Call me paranoid but I didn't want the thing to get hotter than necessary…

I still had in the back of my head the idea that I needed to remove carbs and replace the rubber mat to better isolate them. Even bought a much thicker piece of rubber and found a stencil on the web. I now doubt if this thicker rubber will fit under the carbs.


Anyways, after returning from my trip I popped the carbs and again, found the venting hose badly pinched under the filter box. I’ve been struggling with this hose ever since I pulled the pair system. It seems that no matter where I route it, it always get pinched or bent. Never gave it much thought but now that Chuck has shared with us his (vast) experience on how sensitive carbs are to venting issues and their potential to boil, I'm looking at the pinched hose much closer.


The fact is that my carb venting hose is badly worn, showing some temperature damage and evidence of pinching in various places. When I blow, air does pass through but there is definitely some restriction which I am guessing gets worse when it’s all buttoned up.

Now, Jim Van shared with us that his carbs are venting to the atmosphere. Would there be any problem or risk if I just remove this hose altogether and leave the nipple venting under the air filter box? I could ride like this for a couple of months and adventure into heavy traffic to see how it goes. If it does solve the boiling issue I would dig back in, remove the tank and place a new hose where the old one was but venting to the atmosphere instead. Is this crazy?


On another note, right before pulling the carbs and after the latest long rest, I did have some misfiring which would improve when removing the #3 plug lead leaving it close to the plug, just as described way back in the thread. There is definitely arching going on between the lead and the tip of the plug, which seems to increase voltage to the point that the cylinder fires. I checked the plugs and as expected, #3 (the misfiring cylinder) was badly fouled. The others were on the rich side but not nearly as bad. I replaced the fouled plug and it idled perfectly. Rode for a couple of weeks and removed the plug once more, only to find it again deeply fouled.


Consequently I have closed the pilot screws from 2 and 1/4 turns to 1 and 3/4. Number 3 carb was set at 1 and 1/2 turns which I understand is the minimum value for a lean setting at extreme altitudes (8500 ASL for me). I am planning on adjusting floats back to 8mm from the 6mm set some time back when I thought more fuel in the bowls meant less temp and less chance for boiling. These changes should provide a lean enough setting to keep the plugs from fouling.


Sorry for the long post. Any and all feedback will be very much appreciated.
 
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I've always figured that the reason you should not sync with the fan on was that the added load on the alternator would drop the rpm's down a bit......
It does, from the additional alt. load, which changes engine load, which affects fuel mixture, which affects vacuum draw, which changes sync;).
 
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Your suspect carb issue is electrical.....confused?
I wouls suspect a bad resistor in plug cap before carb fuel mixture. Rule of thumb in automotive world diagnostics is electrical before fueling , always, always. No different, same goes for scoots. As for the altitude adjustments, I live at 5,000ft. and majority of riding is 6-12K. For elevations above 5,000ft. , shop manual actually only reccomends an additional 1/2 turn of mixture screws. Mixture screws on mine were set while running during the sync process, which BTW is correct way of syncing multi- carb bikes. So I have'nt a clue where that would be from lightly seated.
I would definitely get float levels back to specs! This can affect both idle and main circuits.(levels determines how much vacuum needed to draw fuel into venturi). Same effect as how hard one has to blow across the top of a straw in a glass of water in order to draw the water up and out. Much less if the glass is full;).
 
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maubur
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Thanks Brent.

Regarding pilot screw settings, I've found values all over the board. There is one guy who says his were at between 1 1/16 and 1 5/8. Aside from the fact that from a practical POV, measuring sixteenths of a turn is not really possible, he basically had pilots at only 1 turn out and did not mention being at high altitude.

Somewhere else it says that a manual (Clymer?) calls for an initial setting of 5/8 turns. With all this in mind I should be safe with 1.5 to 1.75 turns out all around at 8500 feet above sea level.

Any advice on venting carbs directly to the atmosphere at the nipple (no hose)?
 
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maubur
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Carbs are back on and venting to atmosphere at the nipple (canister hose disconnected). Default rubber mat was mended with reflective tape. New oil is in (no fuel smell in old oil). Did radiator fluid change for peace of mind and buttoned up. Running better with lean pilot screws. Will keep posted.

Best
 

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Carbs are back on and venting to atmosphere at the nipple (canister hose disconnected). Default rubber mat was mended with reflective tape. New oil is in (no fuel smell in old oil). Did radiator fluid change for peace of mind and buttoned up. Running better with lean pilot screws. Will keep posted.

Best
Weathers Getting warmer. Hope you are out riding. Any feedback on the starting issues?
 
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I discovered this evening the ST doesn't go too well when it's wet either,

note to myself,do not wash the bike,just clean the lights!!
 

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I discovered this evening the ST doesn't go too well when it's wet either,

note to myself,do not wash the bike,just clean the lights!!
That is why 95% of the time I just use a micro fiber towel wet to wipe it down and then use Pledge on it to polish it. I have only washed it a few times when it is caked with mud and stuff like that on the bike.
 
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That is why 95% of the time I just use a micro fiber towel wet to wipe it down and then use Pledge on it to polish it. I have only washed it a few times when it is caked with mud and stuff like that on the bike.
That's my plan from now on too Mike,I got a free Motul kit with my new bridgestone tyres,a few different types of spray cleaner in it,must try them out soon,hope the ST dries out soon,some good weather forecast here soon.
 
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