Rough Shifting

Beajae

Beajae

Joined
Mar 23, 2008
Messages
4
Location
Little Chute, WI
I have an 06 ST1300 with about 44,000 miles on it and lately it seems to not shift smoothly, particularly from 1-2 and 2-1. If I accelerate slowly and shift slowly its smooth as butter, but if I shift normal it clunks into gear. I am getting older so not sure if its me or something with the bike. I only use Honda GN4 10w40 oil. I have replaced and bled the clutch fluid and checked the linkage. I have to be almost to a stop before I can downshift to 1st. Any suggestions.
 
how many miles since the last oil change? Shifting often gets worse as the oil gets older. Frankly, Honda GN4 is a mediocre motor oil, you may have better results with a full synthetic or synthetic blend.
 
We have had guys with shifting problems due to a bit of corrosion in the shifter linkage (external). You might check yours and clean and lube it if working the shift pedal by hand feels rough or notchy. But, from what you said, I don't think this is the problem.
 
I have always noticed rather clunky shifting for the first two upShifts on my ST 1300 which is a 2007 model. I got it at 37,000 miles and now it has about 52,000 on it.

This is the only motorcycle I've owned with a hydraulic clutch. The clutch and shifting operations on my prior bikes with cable actuation were much smoother.
( those other bikes were a 96 Honda Shadow and a 1998 Harley Sportster.)

I did borrow a 1994 Goldwing GL 1500 "Interstate" last weekend and rode it with some friends in my riding group for 120 miles-- almost all country roads, not interstates-- and there was a lot of shifting involved.

I noticed that the shifting sounded clunky and loud but the engagement was smooth.

I wonder if the very good exhaust pipes /baffles and quiet engines on these last two bikes are making the difference-- and any "clunking sound" that might've come from my V-twins, the Honda Shadow and the Harley Davidson, would not be heard over the noise of the engine and their rather loud exhaust pipes!?!
 
It's hard to say exactly in this presented case but just in general motorcycle gearbox 1- 2 and 2 -1 shifts tend to be less smooth than the others simply because there is twice the distance across the shift drum because of the neutral location between first and second gear and those 2 gears have a split second longer to get out of synch.
 
Also, check that your clutch engages with the lever away from the grip, not close to it, and pull it fully.
 
This is the only motorcycle I've owned with a hydraulic clutch. The clutch and shifting operations on my prior bikes with cable actuation were much smoother.( those other bikes were a 96 Honda Shadow and a 1998 Harley Sportster.)
Click to expand...
I put several hundreds of thousands of kilometres on a 1992 Honda Shadow VT1100C with an hydraulic clutch. I have also ridden several Harley models quite a bit including a 1996 (I think) 883 Sportster. If you really do find that either of these shift more smoothly than your ST1300 my first reaction is that there must be something amiss with your ST1300. This is a conclusion that I have never come to based on my personal experience. The shifter mechanism is one of those out-of-sight out-of-mind items that very often gets ignored as part of routine maintenance. Going through it can often do a world of good to improve shifting if yours has never been serviced.
 
Last edited:
The clutch on my 1300 AND on my 1250 GSA are hydraulic, and both are great.
The ST shifts even smoother and better than that expensive BMW, which is just fine, but noticeably notchier, especially between 1st, N, and 2nd whether up or down.
 
Make sure that the clutch fluid is bled properly. Non-return valve attached by hose to the bleed nipple o the rear of the coolant bottle (you need the left fairing off).
Pump lever a few times. Hold lever in. release the bleed valve, let the spring in the clutch push the fluid out. Tighten bleed valve before it stops. Repeat.

If that doesn't sort it, check the brass bush in the clutch lever- There is a hole in the side which accomodates the plunger. Make sure it is not worn through. Make sure that the pivot hole isn't worn.

Then its down to lubricating (with silicone grease or brake system rubber grease) the ball and sockets on either side of the gear lever rod. Tricky to get to. I can manager the lower one although getting the boot back on is tricky. I've never managed the upper one. Hands are way to big to get to it.
 
RaYzerman said:
Just adding it is beneficial to remove the shift linkage…..
Click to expand...

I can get at the one bottom right - although getting the boot back on was a pain after it was covered in rubber grease.

But I can’t even get my hand in there to feel the link up near the oil filter. Even with the filter off. I’m thinking that I may replace brake lines this winter, so I may extend that to taking the swing arm off to take a good look. Can you get at it ? Is there a knack to it ? or does it just need smaller hands?
 
In my experience the only negitive I find with Honda hydraulic clutches (the only brand I've had with them) vs cable clutches is a very narrow friction zone. My cable clutch bikes had a wider and therefore more forgiving friction zone so there the learning curve was nil. After awhile I pretty much got there with a hydraulic clutch but for me it's a perishable skill. And for whatevever reason the pull on cable clutches was noticeably lighter. Maybe not a lot lighter but noticeably lighter.

When I (un-necessarily) put a new clutch in my 305 I replaced all six of the clutch springs. Three were from Honda and three (I think I had to buy six) were from Barnett. I alternated the springs thinking I wouldn't warp the plates and that the pull would be a little stiffer for better engagement. The spring height was the same for all of them but the pull — yeow. It was more than I bargained for. But eventually I adapted.
 
I have a similar problem, with my 04, it has been that way since it was new though. When it is hot it is a pain to find neutral. yours is the opposite . Your getting up to the age where the pivot on the clutch lever may be wearing out. When mine wore out the clutch would not disengage completely.
I own a lathe and made one that works like new
 
motornut said:
I have a similar problem, with my 04, it has been that way since it was new though. When it is hot it is a pain to find neutral. yours is the opposite . Your getting up to the age where the pivot on the clutch lever may be wearing out. When mine wore out the clutch would not disengage completely.
I own a lathe and made one that works like new
Click to expand...
You running honda full synthetic 10w30. I was using honda dino 10w40 and it shift hard.
 
I noticed in the past that shifting was easier with fully synth. I use full synthetic every time - so I've forgotten what the comparison was like. I'd forgotten about that as making a difference until you said.
 
Beajae said:
I have an 06 ST1300 with about 44,000 miles on it and lately it seems to not shift smoothly, particularly from 1-2 and 2-1. If I accelerate slowly and shift slowly its smooth as butter, but if I shift normal it clunks into gear. I am getting older so not sure if its me or something with the bike. I only use Honda GN4 10w40 oil. I have replaced and bled the clutch fluid and checked the linkage. I have to be almost to a stop before I can downshift to 1st. Any suggestions.
Click to expand...

Hi @Beajae:
While all of the comments above are interesting, I would start with the clutch.

Honda engines and transmissions are renowned for their durability, and I am sure that your ST1300 is no different from the others. Your mileage at 44,000 (about 71,000 km) is not particularly high for an ST - lots of folks have literally 4x or even 5x that many miles with no troubles in the engine or transmission. Frankly, I would be surprised if the problem has anything to do with engine oil or even the engine at all.

Most shifting problems - especially with elderly bikes like yours (I mean old in years, not miles), are caused by the clutch dragging (i.e., failing to fully disengage when you pull the lever in) and that almost always winds up being related to the clutch hydraulic system. The most common culprit is the clutch slave cylinder (aka the CSC), which is mounted on the rear side of the engine-transmission assembly, up above the centre-stand pivot point.

I had a 2007 ST1300 that I bought in 2015 with around 73,000 km on it, and all was well for around 2-3 years, but then I started experiencing hard shifting - just like you. I quickly found that the clutch is NOT adjustable, and so I eventually zeroed-in on the clutch slave cylinder as the problem. The leak is likely internal, so it won't drop any fluid on the ground - at least for a good while - and even then, it won't be much.

The other potential problem area is the little linkage between the shifter pedal and the shifter shaft under the engine. This linkage can become clogged with road debris, and this can make shifting difficult. To fix that issue, just remove the linkage (a 15-minute task) and clean and re-lube it.

Just be sure to mark the position of the shifter link on the shift-shaft that sticks out of the back ot the engine so that you can get it back onto the shaft in the correct position for the shift pedal to be in the right spot.

Now - I will say that the clutch master cylinder (the thingy on the LH handlebar) could also be the problem - but history has not shown a lot of master cylinder problems, so I would start with the shift linkage and then move to the slave as the likely problem areas.

If it does turn out to be the master, fixing it is easy and cheap, and the only caution is DO NOT spill brake fluid on the gas tank as it will take paint off faster than a bride's nighty on wedding day.

Some years ago, I wrote an article on how to remove and replace the clutch slave cylinder, complete with a list of tools and equipment you will need. I recommend that you go there and have a good read - and then order a new CSC (likely around $100) and do the job. It isn't particularly difficult, but access isn't wonderful - so get ready to spend some time lying on your back half under the bike. It is a 2-3 hour job and not too onerous.

Here is the linky:

https://www.st-owners.com/forums/threads/st1300-clutch-slave-cylinder-replacement.155031/

Since then, a whole bunch (like maybe 50-60) people on this forum have changed their slave cylinders and found that it solved their problems. The point is that your bike is now nearly 20 years old, and that seems to be about the average life of a clutch slave cylinder. The CSCs that people have taken out of their 2003-2010 ST1300s all look really bad with lots of corrosion and debris inside the cylinder, so it is likely your turn for this problem to pop up.

Not to worry though. As I mentioned, the job isn't very difficult, and it will save you a bagload of cash as the Honda Manual's solution to this issue begins with the following steps:

1) Drain clutch hydraulic system [this step will take about 5-10 minutes]
2) Remove engine from motorcycle [this step will take many hours and cost A LOT of money at a dealership]
3) Remove/replace clutch slave cylinder [this step will take about 5 minutes once the engine is out of the bike]
4) Reinstall engine in motorcycle [once again - this is very big job and will cost a ton o'dough]
5) Refill and bleed clutch hydraulic system [another 25-20 minute job]

So - if you can skip over steps 2) and 4) this job is not too bad and will take 2-3 hours and cost very little. I was quoted more than $1500 at my local dealer and then did the job myself for less than $100 CDN.

A couple of key points - I DO NOT recommend trying to rebuild the CSC. For the cost of a new one, and the level of effort required to replace it, the savings are not worth taking a risk of getting a bum rebuild. Besides, most of the CSCs that have been removed are an absolute mess and likely wouldn't be rebuildable anyway.

When I did my CSC in about 2018 or so, the rebuild kit was about 80% of the cost of a brand new CSC - so the savings of trying to rebuild it were around the price of a couple of Happy Meals.

Cheers and keep us posted,

Pete
 
Last edited:
Thank you all for the responses. It does appear to me that it is an issue with the clutch not disengaging completely. I did previously replace and bleed the fluid as it was pretty dirty and slightly low. Since I changed it, the fluid level has stayed the same. The linkage seems to be pretty smooth operating, but I will clean it all up and lubricate it just to be sure. The clutch lever does seem to be a bit loose so I will definitely take that all apart and check the bushing. And I did just change the oil. Unfortunately, its looking like I may end up having to replace the slave cylinder, as it did have a small leak so there is probably some corrosion in the cylinder. Good to hear its not my riding abilities. The link to how to replace the cylinder didn't work but I can just do a search. Lastly, does anyone have a source for a replacement slave cylinder and gasket.
Thanks again.
 
And for whatevever reason the pull on cable clutches was noticeably lighter. Maybe not a lot lighter but noticeably lighter.
Click to expand...
Comparing two motorcycles of similar weight and engine size, one with an hydraulic clutch and one with a cable operated clutch, might yield a different perspective. It is easier to overcome the spring force of a given clutch with an hydraulic system than it is with a cable operated system on that same clutch. The introduction of hydraulic clutches are what made it possible to overcome the higher spring forces required of clutches needed for heavier motorcycles with larger displacement high torque engines. Without them there would be the need for ridiculously long lever throw and/or the need to have forearms like Popeye. With lighter motorcycles having less powerful engines the clutch spring force that needs to be overcome is much less and cable operated clutches in these applications aren't hard to pull. I would hate to be pulling a cable operated clutch on a heavy motorcycle like an ST1300 or a Goldwing that are powered by very large high torque engines in stop and go traffic. I can feel the burn in my forearm just thinking about it.
 
Beajae said:
Thank you all for the responses. It does appear to me that it is an issue with the clutch not disengaging completely. I did previously replace and bleed the fluid as it was pretty dirty and slightly low. Since I changed it, the fluid level has stayed the same. The linkage seems to be pretty smooth operating, but I will clean it all up and lubricate it just to be sure. The clutch lever does seem to be a bit loose so I will definitely take that all apart and check the bushing. And I did just change the oil. Unfortunately, its looking like I may end up having to replace the slave cylinder, as it did have a small leak so there is probably some corrosion in the cylinder. Good to hear its not my riding abilities. The link to how to replace the cylinder didn't work but I can just do a search. Lastly, does anyone have a source for a replacement slave cylinder and gasket.
Thanks again.
Click to expand...
Here is the link;

ST1300 - Clutch Slave Cylinder Replacement​

As quick check move your clutch lever up and down and measure how much travel there is at the outside tip. When everything is new and has no wear there is less than about 1/8" total movement. This is only to give you an idea of how much wear there is in the assembly. Regardless of what amount of movement that you have you still should take it apart, clean it up, have a good look, and re-lubricate everything.
 
I have run regular 10/40 for a long time and changed to a semi-synthetic later on, the ST has 130000 miles on it and the shifting characteristic has been the same since new. The transmission has always been clunky compared to my ZRX and Concours.
Oil doesn't matter in this difficulty. I would have to get into the trans and adjust the dogs or pawls. I don't really consider it a problem, just part of the bike.
The only reason I went to a semi-synthetic is to extend the oil change intervals due to owning what my wife says are too many bikes even though there is never enough. Only too small a garage
Tdinova said:
You running honda full synthetic 10w30. I was using honda dino 10w40 and it shift hard.
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom