ChucksKLRST
Team Colorado
Amusing little video on clutch lever vs DCT
Clutch vs. No Clutch
- Thread starter ChucksKLRST
- Start date
the Ferret
Daily rider since May 1965
Well, he makes some salient points about the DCT vs clutch but he also misses some.
Some people brag about their ability to only use the clutch for stopping once they take off by using "timed" clutchless shifts, while others have to have quick shifters so they don't have to use a clutch when shifting. So what is the clutch lever there for? Starting and stopping? Big deal.
As of 2 weeks from now, I've been riding 61 years. Ride on average 308 days a year in all conditions, ave a little over 20K miles a year. Ridden to all of the lower 48 states and 5 countries in Europe. Consider myself a pretty serious motorcyclist. I've owned/ ridden 3 speed left hand belly shift with foot clutches, 3 speed twist shifts left hand wrist, 4 speeds shift on the left, 4 speeds shift on the right, 5 speeds, 6 speeds, Torque converters, CVTs and DCTs. I've enjoyed riding them all, but I mostly enjoy the DCT for it's convenience and adaptability.
Automatics are nothing new,. Honda has had no clutch 2 wheelers since 1961. Moto Guzzi produced one in 1975 (the 1000 convert) as did Honda in 1976 (750 Automatic) in 2007 Aprilia brought out the Mana 850 automatic and Honda produced it's first DCT in 2010.
People who think that mastering a clutch is something only seasoned riders can do has never been to an early 70's motocross and seen a bunch of 9-year-olds on Yamaha GT 60s and GT 80's tearing it up.
Most street riding shifting is honestly mundane...you take off from a stop (stop sign/stop light etc) and shift up as many gears as you have until you come to the next stop and shift down as many gears as you have. Repeat as necessary. Nice idyllic winding roads like the one at the end of the video (from 8:59? to end) don't require any shifting so basically once you get into top gear on a road like that, you are basically riding an automatic for miles and miles. Same with going cross country on the freeway.
There are roads where rowing a gear box is fun. and anyone familiar with a DCT can tell you that you can do that with a DCT box in two different ways, (1) by putting it in manual mode and using the thumb operated shift levers where you control every shift up and down just like it's a manual shift bike only without a clutch lever, or (2) by leaving it in automatic mode and just overriding it with the thumb operated shift levers. BTW a DCT can shift up or down way, way faster than a standard manual shift rider can change gears, and unlike manual shift bikes, downshifting a DCT mid corner does not upset the chassis.
has a DCT ruined motorcycling? Not for me, it has only enhanced it.
I love my DCT bikes
Some people brag about their ability to only use the clutch for stopping once they take off by using "timed" clutchless shifts, while others have to have quick shifters so they don't have to use a clutch when shifting. So what is the clutch lever there for? Starting and stopping? Big deal.
As of 2 weeks from now, I've been riding 61 years. Ride on average 308 days a year in all conditions, ave a little over 20K miles a year. Ridden to all of the lower 48 states and 5 countries in Europe. Consider myself a pretty serious motorcyclist. I've owned/ ridden 3 speed left hand belly shift with foot clutches, 3 speed twist shifts left hand wrist, 4 speeds shift on the left, 4 speeds shift on the right, 5 speeds, 6 speeds, Torque converters, CVTs and DCTs. I've enjoyed riding them all, but I mostly enjoy the DCT for it's convenience and adaptability.
Automatics are nothing new,. Honda has had no clutch 2 wheelers since 1961. Moto Guzzi produced one in 1975 (the 1000 convert) as did Honda in 1976 (750 Automatic) in 2007 Aprilia brought out the Mana 850 automatic and Honda produced it's first DCT in 2010.
People who think that mastering a clutch is something only seasoned riders can do has never been to an early 70's motocross and seen a bunch of 9-year-olds on Yamaha GT 60s and GT 80's tearing it up.
Most street riding shifting is honestly mundane...you take off from a stop (stop sign/stop light etc) and shift up as many gears as you have until you come to the next stop and shift down as many gears as you have. Repeat as necessary. Nice idyllic winding roads like the one at the end of the video (from 8:59? to end) don't require any shifting so basically once you get into top gear on a road like that, you are basically riding an automatic for miles and miles. Same with going cross country on the freeway.
There are roads where rowing a gear box is fun. and anyone familiar with a DCT can tell you that you can do that with a DCT box in two different ways, (1) by putting it in manual mode and using the thumb operated shift levers where you control every shift up and down just like it's a manual shift bike only without a clutch lever, or (2) by leaving it in automatic mode and just overriding it with the thumb operated shift levers. BTW a DCT can shift up or down way, way faster than a standard manual shift rider can change gears, and unlike manual shift bikes, downshifting a DCT mid corner does not upset the chassis.
has a DCT ruined motorcycling? Not for me, it has only enhanced it.
I love my DCT bikes
I do like what he has said in the Video,as a retired Transmission Rebuilder I had to drive/ride and fix both Automatics and Standards and a few weird things like the VW semi automatic, and CVT's . Thing I have found out,every style of transmission has its Pro'S and Con's , so ride what puts the biggest Smile on your face and let others ride what puts a smile on their face. G
Ya think Mick?
I'm probably all wet in my analysis of that chart above from the video. Here's what I take from it. In 1985, the manufacturers were selling to 27 yr old buyers. In 1990...five years later...they sold to the same buyers who were now five years older. Jump eight more years to 1998, and the average age of the motorcycle rider jumped ten years, a difference of only two years from the original group's aging.
He doesn't include data on how many sales were made, but an argument can be made that some of that increase was simply because that same group of riders bought multiple motorcycles. All we have to do is look around us. Raise your hand if you have multiple motorcycles in your garage. Keep your hands up so I can get a good count...
Yeah, I'm probably all wet and instead of making what I see in the data clearer with my explanation...I've only muddied the waters.
Moving on...Another thought came to mind. Not sure how to explain it. Maybe call it suggestive market manipulation? If I take away your favorite Coco-Cola flavor and then flood the market with what seems to be independent glowing reviews of a new flavor of Coke...will you be convinced that the new flavor is better? Even if you don't think so initially? And then in five years down the road, you look for the old Coke flavor that you remembered fondly...you can't find it? It didn't work in the case of New Coke, but it can work in a lot of things. Maybe the manufacturer wants to change the coke flavor because they can get the ingredients for the new coke cheaper and make more profit...not because the consumer really wants it. But you're told that everyone likes it, and if you don't, you are an oddball. Get with the program...and so you do. Groupthink.
I look at other things and it makes me wonder how much of what I read and see is really objective, and how much is actually press releases from the manufacturers disguised as independent reviews.
Okay, so I've taken this thread down a rabbit hole that has made everyone wonder what I've been drinking today. I will admit to drinking only coffee.
Last thought regarding DCT vs clutch. I'm probably on my last motorcycle, if I'm realistic. It doesn't have a DCT, so I'll be riding with a clutch till I give up riding. So if the only option in 10 years is a DCT...it's a moot point. It doesn't affect me. I'm happy with where I am and the entire experience of shifting up and down using my left hand is part of the pleasure of riding. It's seamless for me. I don't even think about it. There's a certain feeling of pride in operating a motorcycle smoothly in varying conditions. When Steve McQueen drove the Mustang in the iconic chase scene in Bullitt, did he drive a slush-box? Not a chance. The bad guys in their Charger didn't either.
If a real man like Steve McQueen can handle a clutch...I will too.
Chris
the Ferret said:
unlike manual shift bikes, downshifting a DCT mid corner does not upset the chassis.
That is one of the strongest selling points of DCT.
Having said that, the relaxed way I ride these days, it probably doesn't matter much.
unlike manual shift bikes, downshifting a DCT mid corner does not upset the chassis.
That is one of the strongest selling points of DCT.
Having said that, the relaxed way I ride these days, it probably doesn't matter much.
Thing I like about the ST1100 is it's got enough torque to not have to shift in a curve no matter what gear it's in.
the Ferret
Daily rider since May 1965
If you care to read, long but hopefully interesting and informative for those with an open mind...
I'll admit the first time I test rode a DCT, a Honda CT 700 in 2017 iirc, I thought Blah! Horrible. It upshifted way too early. It didn't upshift shift or downshift when I would normally shift. I returned from the test ride disinterested, with a decidedly negative opinion about the DCT trans
4 years later, in 2021 I had been riding an FJR 1300 for the last 3 years, after 10 years on my ST 1300. The FJR was a wonderful motorcycle. 6 speed, cruise, heated grips, adjustable windshield. Like the ST, just a great bike for touring 2 up, but my wife, my touring/travelling companion for the last 49 years informed me she was done touring 2 up. 2 hip and 2 knee replacements had made it too difficult for her to mount and dismount the bike. She would still ride her step thru scooter locally but was done with touring. To tell the truth I was crushed, but understood. I didnt want to travel without her. She was invaluable as a touring partner. Always eager to go, an expert at finding us accomodations. Encouraging if anything went wrong (I tend to panic when things don't go right), always there, always upbeat. Never complaining about heat or cold or long hours in the saddle. She made touring enjoyable for me. So, if she wasn't going to tour anymore, neither was I, and if I was going to not be touring, I didnt need a 650 pound 150 horsepower motorcycle for local/day rides. I was in my 70s and decided it was time to downsize, less weight, less power, just ... less. I considered a V Strom ( too tall for my munchkin legs and no local dealer) My local dealer was a Honda Yamaha dealer. I considered the Yam 900 triple but it was also tall and kind of ugly imo. For 2021 Honda upgraded the NC 750 including making it more street oriented which included lowering the seat height to something reasonable for my munchkin inseam. It got great reviews, exceptional gas mileage, and Honda reliability... and to tell the truth, I'm kind of a Honda guy.
So, I started researching the NC 750. Reading reviews, watching videos. I put on my listening ears and talked to a bunch of experienced riders whose opinions I respected and could trust who, to a man, heaped praise upon the DCT. They insisted a 15 minute test ride wasn't near enough. You had to live with one for awhile. Again, to a man, they said the DCT transformed their motorcycling. Enhancing rather than degrading their motorcycle experience. It was a leap of faith ( and hope). I rode my FJR up to my dealer, and traded it in on an NC 750X DCT.
I'll admit for the first 3 weeks of daily riding the NC 750, I thought I had made a bad mistake. Coming from a 150 hp 6 speed missle, I thought it lacked power. I kept reaching for the clutch lever, especially when coming to a stop, kept trying to find the shift lever with my toe. Eventually the manual shifting urge went away and I quit reaching for non existant levers. I learned to relax, let the DCT do its thing, while I enjoyed the light weight, the eager handling, and the ride unencumbered by working levers all the time. It was just so easy to ride. I learned how to work the modes, and the up and downshift paddles efficiently, although I rarely use them now. I just ride, and let the DCT do all the work. A few months in, I also found I no longer missed the big power, the torquey NC had plenty for my rides. It even travelled pretty well I found out by taking it on some trips to some of our neighboring states. Probably would not be my first choice for a East Coast to West Coast ride, but no doubt the little Honda could do it. From July of 21 to October of 25, I put over 70,000 miles on the 21 NC DCT. I love it. So much so, that when a friend called with a line on a really low mileage 23 model for a good price I jumped on it. Travelled to Wi to pick it up. Now, I have two NC 750 DCTs in the garage, and don't think I could be happier. I can't think of another bike I'd rather have in the garage. At a soon to be 76, I'm pretty sure the 23 will take me to the end of my riding days. The last 5 years have been some of the most pleasurable riding of the 61 years I have been riding, and the DCT trans has had a lot to do with that. I can say with all honesty, it's brilliant!
The experienced guys were right, you have to live with a DCT for awhile, before you really appreciate it, and I'm thankful that I listened to them. I love my DCTs.
I'll admit the first time I test rode a DCT, a Honda CT 700 in 2017 iirc, I thought Blah! Horrible. It upshifted way too early. It didn't upshift shift or downshift when I would normally shift. I returned from the test ride disinterested, with a decidedly negative opinion about the DCT trans
4 years later, in 2021 I had been riding an FJR 1300 for the last 3 years, after 10 years on my ST 1300. The FJR was a wonderful motorcycle. 6 speed, cruise, heated grips, adjustable windshield. Like the ST, just a great bike for touring 2 up, but my wife, my touring/travelling companion for the last 49 years informed me she was done touring 2 up. 2 hip and 2 knee replacements had made it too difficult for her to mount and dismount the bike. She would still ride her step thru scooter locally but was done with touring. To tell the truth I was crushed, but understood. I didnt want to travel without her. She was invaluable as a touring partner. Always eager to go, an expert at finding us accomodations. Encouraging if anything went wrong (I tend to panic when things don't go right), always there, always upbeat. Never complaining about heat or cold or long hours in the saddle. She made touring enjoyable for me. So, if she wasn't going to tour anymore, neither was I, and if I was going to not be touring, I didnt need a 650 pound 150 horsepower motorcycle for local/day rides. I was in my 70s and decided it was time to downsize, less weight, less power, just ... less. I considered a V Strom ( too tall for my munchkin legs and no local dealer) My local dealer was a Honda Yamaha dealer. I considered the Yam 900 triple but it was also tall and kind of ugly imo. For 2021 Honda upgraded the NC 750 including making it more street oriented which included lowering the seat height to something reasonable for my munchkin inseam. It got great reviews, exceptional gas mileage, and Honda reliability... and to tell the truth, I'm kind of a Honda guy.
So, I started researching the NC 750. Reading reviews, watching videos. I put on my listening ears and talked to a bunch of experienced riders whose opinions I respected and could trust who, to a man, heaped praise upon the DCT. They insisted a 15 minute test ride wasn't near enough. You had to live with one for awhile. Again, to a man, they said the DCT transformed their motorcycling. Enhancing rather than degrading their motorcycle experience. It was a leap of faith ( and hope). I rode my FJR up to my dealer, and traded it in on an NC 750X DCT.
I'll admit for the first 3 weeks of daily riding the NC 750, I thought I had made a bad mistake. Coming from a 150 hp 6 speed missle, I thought it lacked power. I kept reaching for the clutch lever, especially when coming to a stop, kept trying to find the shift lever with my toe. Eventually the manual shifting urge went away and I quit reaching for non existant levers. I learned to relax, let the DCT do its thing, while I enjoyed the light weight, the eager handling, and the ride unencumbered by working levers all the time. It was just so easy to ride. I learned how to work the modes, and the up and downshift paddles efficiently, although I rarely use them now. I just ride, and let the DCT do all the work. A few months in, I also found I no longer missed the big power, the torquey NC had plenty for my rides. It even travelled pretty well I found out by taking it on some trips to some of our neighboring states. Probably would not be my first choice for a East Coast to West Coast ride, but no doubt the little Honda could do it. From July of 21 to October of 25, I put over 70,000 miles on the 21 NC DCT. I love it. So much so, that when a friend called with a line on a really low mileage 23 model for a good price I jumped on it. Travelled to Wi to pick it up. Now, I have two NC 750 DCTs in the garage, and don't think I could be happier. I can't think of another bike I'd rather have in the garage. At a soon to be 76, I'm pretty sure the 23 will take me to the end of my riding days. The last 5 years have been some of the most pleasurable riding of the 61 years I have been riding, and the DCT trans has had a lot to do with that. I can say with all honesty, it's brilliant!
The experienced guys were right, you have to live with a DCT for awhile, before you really appreciate it, and I'm thankful that I listened to them. I love my DCTs.
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OP
OP
ChucksKLRST
Team Colorado
Similar experience as the Ferret except I still have my FJR, I can reach the ground on my V-Strom and I traded my Big Versys for the Honda NT1100 DCT. Yes, one has to live with the DCT for a couple of months to master it and appreciate it. I am thinking the bikes I have will be my last as my riding has decreased drastically mainly due to my caregiving to my wife and I will be 77 this year.
I love my DCT motorcycles.
ST Gui
240Robert
I don't have a DCT bike. Yet. My next bike – if there is one — will be a DCT. It will be because of the thoroughly explained experiences of members here.
Operating a clutch lever isn't demonstrative or representative of superior skill. Yet the few other riders I know all balk when I mention DCT. And the subtext is using a clutch lever makes you more of real motorcyclist than not.
All well and good. While DCT rides extol the benefits of it few if any here have given clutch lever users any grief over choosing it over DCT. Choice it good.
There has been a lot of pushback the other way 'round though. It's sort of subtle. But when some says "I love DCT" the the subtext to the contrary isn't always so subtle.
Choice is good. Ride what you like. Life is too short and getting shorter by the day to feel affronts from what somebody else likes. Me – after years of shifting and enjoying it — I want to see how the other half (or more) lives.
Some may be interested in the preemtive side of it.
"""""While there isn't a "magic pill" for Alzheimer’s, regular motorcycle riding—specifically the mental and physical coordination required to operate a clutch and throttle—can be a powerful tool for maintaining brain health."""""""
Physical health too. When I started riding again, I had a Suzuki Burgman 400. A maxi-scooter with a CVT transmission. The left hand was used for the rear brake. It worked great.
Then I started noticing arthritis pain in my left hand. I went in for an ultrasound for a gall bladder problem and the nurse/technician...whatever she was called, said I had arthritis in my hip. I'm thinking, "No duh...I could've told you that." About the same time, I had this thought in the back of my mind that perhaps I should try a "real" motorcycle before I get too old to do it. Most of the Burgman riders were riding these at the end of their riding days, not decades earlier like I was.
So I bought my Honda NT700V. I'm now swinging my leg over the seat, instead of moving my leg in front of the seat. My left hand is now squeezing the clutch lever instead of a brake lever and doing it perhaps 50 times more often. And without realizing it at the time, my hand no longer has arthritis, and my hip doesn't bother me.
Will it cure advanced arthritis? I doubt it. But it might just prevent it from getting worse if you're doing it early enough.
Chris
Then I started noticing arthritis pain in my left hand. I went in for an ultrasound for a gall bladder problem and the nurse/technician...whatever she was called, said I had arthritis in my hip. I'm thinking, "No duh...I could've told you that." About the same time, I had this thought in the back of my mind that perhaps I should try a "real" motorcycle before I get too old to do it. Most of the Burgman riders were riding these at the end of their riding days, not decades earlier like I was.
So I bought my Honda NT700V. I'm now swinging my leg over the seat, instead of moving my leg in front of the seat. My left hand is now squeezing the clutch lever instead of a brake lever and doing it perhaps 50 times more often. And without realizing it at the time, my hand no longer has arthritis, and my hip doesn't bother me.
Will it cure advanced arthritis? I doubt it. But it might just prevent it from getting worse if you're doing it early enough.
Chris
drrod
Site Supporter
I recently rented a Honda 1000 with a DCT in Europe. I was a bit apprehensive when they switched it out for the standard that I had reserved but, as with most bike rentals, you can't just go down the line and pick something else. So, off I went on a ride through France, Belgium, and Holland. A short way into the ride (in Paris) I am thinking that this is not as "bad" as I had thought it would be. By the end of the day, I was "this thing works pretty good". By the time I dropped the bike off 2 weeks later, I am thinking that it works really well once you get the hang of it. It seems to know what gear you need at any given time, can control it if you like, and of course a godsend in heavy traffic.
If all I could ride for the rest of my riding life was a DCT, I would not be unhappy.
If all I could ride for the rest of my riding life was a DCT, I would not be unhappy.
I did too..... but I don't have one anymore. Riding is still the great experience it was when first experienced 55 yrs ago..... on a bike back then equipped with an automatic clutch. Perhaps I have completed the circle.
divemaster5734
Site Supporter
My track bike had a quick shifter, but all that does is interrupts the ignition coil for the millisecond your shifting, effectively shutting off the engine.
I'm probably all wet in my analysis of that chart above from the video. Here's what I take from it. In 1985, the manufacturers were selling to 27 yr old buyers. In 1990...five years later...they sold to the same buyers who were now five years older. Jump eight more years to 1998, and the average age of the motorcycle rider jumped ten years, a difference of only two years from the original group's aging.
He doesn't include data on how many sales were made, but an argument can be made that some of that increase was simply because that same group of riders bought multiple motorcycles. All we have to do is look around us. Raise your hand if you have multiple motorcycles in your garage. Keep your hands up so I can get a good count...
Yeah, I'm probably all wet and instead of making what I see in the data clearer with my explanation...I've only muddied the waters.
Another thought came to mind. Not sure how to explain it. Maybe call it suggestive market manipulation? If I take away your favorite Coco-Cola flavor and then flood the market with what seems to be independent glowing reviews of a new flavor of Coke...will you be convinced that the new flavor is better? Even if you don't think so initially? And then in five years down the road, you look for the old Coke flavor that you remembered fondly...you can't find it? It didn't work in the case of New Coke, but it can work in a lot of things. Maybe the manufacturer wants to change the coke flavor because they can get the ingredients for the new coke cheaper and make more profit...not because the consumer really wants it. But you're told that everyone likes it, and if you don't, you are an oddball. Get with the program...and so you do. Groupthink.
I look at other things and it makes me wonder how much of what I read and see is really objective, and how much is actually press releases from the manufacturers disguised as independent reviews.
Okay, so I've taken this thread down a rabbit hole that has made everyone wonder what I've been drinking today. I will admit to drinking only coffee.
Last thought regarding DCT vs clutch. I'm probably on my last motorcycle, if I'm realistic. It doesn't have a DCT, so I'll be riding with a clutch till I give up riding. So if the only option in 10 years is a DCT...it's a moot point. It doesn't affect me. I'm happy with where I am and the entire experience of shifting up and down using my left hand is part of the pleasure of riding. It's seamless for me. I don't even think about it. There's a certain feeling of pride in operating a motorcycle smoothly in varying conditions. When Steve McQueen drove the Mustang in the iconic chase scene in Bullitt, did he drive a slush-box? Not a chance. The bad guys in their Charger didn't either.
If a real man like Steve McQueen can handle a clutch...I will too.
Chris
They work in conjunction with the clutch, but obviously can't be used in a traffic situation for starting out.
That said, my shifting was 1 up, 2-5 down, because your toes are on the pegs to keep from sliding the bike on the side of your boot in a turn.
I've only been using two fingers to clutch in traffic, and the truth is, on the track your not going to be taking off hard from a standstill except for the start, even taking off after a rare red will usually go yellow before full green.
I realize you can put an automatic bike in manual for traffic, but if you do that, why even bother with an auto trans?
In traffic and on mountain roads I use the compression for slowing down or maintaining a downhill speed when needed.
On my ST I'll just shift without clutch with a slight throttle twist and time it depending on whether I'm going up or down.
I didn't realize automatic bikes were getting so popular.
That will totally kill the time honored stalls and resulting friendly humiliation when teaching someone to ride.
drrod
Site Supporter
Honda's DCT will downshift, and hold the gear, if/when it sense deceleration or downhill. Those that have one may wade it to expand on it.
the Ferret
Daily rider since May 1965
Which is exactly why I leave mine in standard auto mode and let the DCT do its thing. However some people just insist on being in complete control of every facet of shifting (which is the most common argument against the DCT.. ie: "I wouldn't own a DCT because like to be in control").
I will use the downshift button for passing or going up a hill, but I've found Honda engineers have actually done a great job of programming the DCT for about every situation. However,if you want you can override it with the up/down levers... want to downshift once, thumb the lever and bam done! Want to downshift say from 5th to third for a corner at the end of a straight? bam bam faster than you can say bam bam it's done. Literally in milliseconds.
The DCT is so efficient it's outlawed in MotoGP
Even in manual mode a DCT is a much quicker shifting bike than a manual clutch rider can manage because of the dual clutches
Video explanation: