Pre-Load Fluid Replacement Follow Up

dduelin said:

This isn't the first thread on refilling the ST1300 preload adjuster. It's hard to get the thing full enough that it starts taking up at less than 3 clicks. However, I have some experience with losing preload adjustment over time - it just gets worse. By removing all preload on the shock between rides I have avoided the problem getting worse over time. On the original shock at 60,000 miles it took 18 clicks to take up. After 20-something thousand miles the slack of 4 clicks has not changed. I see that as a positive.

BTW, no one ever sees the stock preload adjuster leak or finds evidence of the fluid outside of the unit. All that happens is that it takes more clicks to start working. How is this? I did not think the fluid would compress over time but since it doesn't leak out - what happens?

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They leak out, you just have to know where to look
If you look at the very bottom of the shock, where its attached to the swing arm, you'll see an oily film there, along with road grime.
I suspect this is where it leaks. The soft rubber seal vs heat, versus pressure.
Your doing a good thing, taking the load off after every ride.
After I filled mine up, I have resistance from 1 1/2 clicks. Its been that way for the past 11K miles, and I don't take the pressure off at night.
I don't however, go beyond 13 clicks (6 1/2 full turns).

mlheck said:

I replaced the missing oil in my preload this weekend and did wonder about one thing. It is next to impossible to keep air out of the system this way, and from working on far more brake system than I care to think about, I know that it doesn't take much air to mess up a sealed hydraulic system. I started to wonder if we might be adding some extra movement to the suspension system by introducing air into the system. The air will compress when additional load is added to the spring and then try to push back when the load is removed. Such as a bump in the road. There doesn't appear to be a good way to bleed the air out of the system. Just my $0.02 worth.

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I remove the fitting carefully, keeping the hose higher than the shock, then fill the unit to the very top, then slap 'em back together. I've not had any issues with air yet. Don't think it matters that much.
I've filled other forum members bikes that lost the fluid in the hose too, by filling the unit, attaching the fitting, screwing it in, refilling, etc. until there was no more space.
Again, don't think it makes much difference. Just my .02, but then again I'm just a shade tree mechanic, not a pro

Igofar said:

I believe I found the washers 8mm copper sealing washers at Gaingers.
I'll check when I get home tonight, and provide you with the part number on the package if I still have it.

IGOFAR

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The label on the copper washers is as follows: #37609 8mm ID x 12mm OD x 1mm Sealing washer- copper 6ne-wit-emsd-b48-0311-64i-0267c
From Imperial Supplies LLC (made in germany)
Package of 25
Hope this helps.
Larry

Mine was one of the bikes that Larry repaired at his new Alice's Restaurant Bike Shop

My preload has been useless since I bought the bike used with less than 10K so I've learned to live with its sagging bohind for over 100k. What a difference!

Thanks again Larry

Mike

mlheck said:

I replaced the missing oil in my preload this weekend and did wonder about one thing. It is next to impossible to keep air out of the system this way, and from working on far more brake system than I care to think about, I know that it doesn't take much air to mess up a sealed hydraulic system. I started to wonder if we might be adding some extra movement to the suspension system by introducing air into the system. The air will compress when additional load is added to the spring and then try to push back when the load is removed. Such as a bump in the road. There doesn't appear to be a good way to bleed the air out of the system. Just my $0.02 worth.

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This is the reason I did mine off the bike as I outlined in the original thread. Air in the system is a bad thing as you note.

Larry, You did mine at the Gizditch Pie Garage, and thanks so very much ! It did feel allot better going home over the pass ! Thanks so much buddy...IOU my friend !

On another side note (unrelated) There are some sink holes developing on the Gilroy side of Hecker Pass 152. This side "was" the smoothest, and they are hard to spot.
Two that are near the shoulder could "launch" a rider if you got to close. Another abrupt dip crosses the entire lane,like a sunken snake, but can be mostly avoided by hugging
the center line. Just be carefull....That side looks smooth, but it can be hazardous. I'll post anotherwarning on the Calf threads.

Killtimer said:

This is the reason I did mine off the bike as I outlined in the original thread. Air in the system is a bad thing as you note.

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As apposed to riding around with a HUGE air space (several clicks before reaching resistance) in the system? I think by adding fluid and topping the system off, its much better than before.
My sayin'

Igofar said:

As apposed to riding around with a HUGE air space (several clicks before reaching resistance) in the system? I think by adding fluid and topping the system off, its much better than before.
My sayin'

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That's not usually what happens. The per-load adjuster plunger isn't attached to the knob/screw. It doesn't fully retract when the adjuster is at 0 clicks and the fluid is low. That's why a blunt object must be used to re-seat the plunger before adding fluid.

Good point.. that's why I, like you push it back down with a plastic chopstick before filling it up.
Now lets go ride some more.

Igofar said:

They leak out, you just have to know where to look
If you look at the very bottom of the shock, where its attached to the swing arm, you'll see an oily film there, along with road grime.
I suspect this is where it leaks.

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This isn't a reasonable answer, for me at least. It is almost normal on a shock with a few miles on it to have a little damp spot at the bottom of the shock body that is coated with dust or road grime. This is probably less than a few drops spread over time. It doesn't take much as hot as it gets in there for minute amount of oil to migrate. On the other hand I have had two shocks leak on my ST, Hagons (never again), and there is a world of difference between a leak that drips oil out onto the swing arm and a small grimy area on the bottom of the shock body. I still don't know where the oil goes in these Showa adjusters. It's like the oil thins out and loses volume but that goes against my intuition.

dduelin said:

This isn't a reasonable answer, for me at least. It is almost normal on a shock with a few miles on it to have a little damp spot at the bottom of the shock body that is coated with dust or road grime. This is probably less than a few drops spread over time. It doesn't take much as hot as it gets in there for minute amount of oil to migrate. On the other hand I have had two shocks leak on my ST, Hagons (never again), and there is a world of difference between a leak that drips oil out onto the swing arm and a small grimy area on the bottom of the shock body. I still don't know where the oil goes in these Showa adjusters. It's like the oil thins out and loses volume but that goes against my intuition.

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I wonder if it's possible the oil volume loss is on the adjuster end. If it gets by the plunger seals is there room for oil to accumulate?

The oil goes to the same place the damping oil went in the early ST1100 tip over sensors (recall item) and lost socks.....

I got off my butt tonight and "refilled" mine. I had to turn 16 clicks before I felt any resistance at all. When I pulled the knob off, there was a thin film of oil/grime on the end of the reservoir (on/around the BB & spring). I didn't look hard at the rest of the system, but my guess would be that it's underfilled at the factory (by design? expecting dealers to fill it at delivery? poor communication to whoever fills them by the designers/engineers? poor metric to english conversion? errant decimal point-filled with .3 ml instead of 3 ml?), or has been said above, the fluid thins. Either way, a very easy repair/fix, and I now have resistance before the first click. Thanks for this article!

Well, I'm hoping that I just resolved my shock problem (or got more???) I just got a shock off ebay, claiming to have only 5911 miles on it. When I get it, I'll refill the adjuster first, then put it on! Wish me luck!

SupraSabre said:

Well, I'm hoping that I just resolved my shock problem (or got more???) I just got a shock off ebay, claiming to have only 5911 miles on it. When I get it, I'll refill the adjuster first, then put it on! Wish me luck!

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Bob,

My shock has over 86,000 miles and it now feels better then new!

970mike said:

Bob,

My shock has over 86,000 miles and it now feels better then new!

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That's okay Mike, because I figured for $165 for an almost new shock, and then refill it! It will feel like new at least until I hit 200K!

dduelin said:

This isn't a reasonable answer, for me at least. It is almost normal on a shock with a few miles on it to have a little damp spot at the bottom of the shock body that is coated with dust or road grime. This is probably less than a few drops spread over time. It doesn't take much as hot as it gets in there for minute amount of oil to migrate. On the other hand I have had two shocks leak on my ST, Hagons (never again), and there is a world of difference between a leak that drips oil out onto the swing arm and a small grimy area on the bottom of the shock body. I still don't know where the oil goes in these Showa adjusters. It's like the oil thins out and loses volume but that goes against my intuition.

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Dave, that's called sublimation.

970mike said:

Bob,

My shock has over 86,000 miles and it now feels better then new!

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On that (me too) Thanks Larry !!

By the way.....I like your riding style....Lets ride again !

Igofar said:

NEVER use Brake fluid!!!! Just picture what your frame and plastic would look like after it leaked!

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Not to mention brake fluid ruins rubber seals and hoses that aren't designed for it. I think jack oil or hydraulic fluid would be the best choices.

Jim

Here are some pictures I took when I serviced the preload adjuster on a spare shock I have. I bought this off the forum with 9,000 miles on it. 10,000 miles later it took 12 clicks for the adjuster to start working. In the first pic the preload is completely screwed in or to the Hard setting and I measured 6.5 mm of preload on the spring which is all she had at that time. Pic 2 the adjuster is screwed all the way out and the spring is the full length as allowed by the shock body. In Pic 3 I have removed the adjuster knob. The ball and spring that make up the clicker are lying between the adjuster body and the knob. I am pointing at the hole the spring and ball are in when assembled. If the ball flies out when removing the knob and is lost you can go to Ace Hardware and get a 4mm or 5/32 ball bearing to replace the lost one. That is what I did. Pic 4 shows the hole in the end of the body and the original fluid that came out. It wasn't bad looking, just not enough of it. In Pic 5 you can see the large adjustable wrench and the 10mm wrench used to remove the banjo (the hose) fitting. Also there I have some Bel Ray 5 wt fork oil and a syringe I used to fill the adjuster body. I saw 5 wt fork oil used in a Gold Wing DIY article on refilling a Showa preload adjuster and well, I had some on the shelf so that is what I used. In Pic 6 I have reassembled the hose and the knob back on and am pointing to where the ball fits just under the edge of the knob. Pic 7 shows now there is 9.7 mm of preload on the spring - a gain of 3.7 mm. The adjuster takes up at the first click now. Pic 7 shows the preload adjuster of the shock that is on my bike now. Because the clicker eventually gets crud in it and doesn't click much I painted a white dot and 2 white lines 180 degrees apart that correspond to "clicks" so I can keep track of preload and replicate the settings I want. I always release all preload on the shock now when the bike is in the garage. I hope this slows the loss of adjustment that seems to dog the Showa adjuster Honda uses on the ST1300. It seems to work so far.