So my 1300 has this weird thing that happens whenever there is a crosswind. Even at 50mph with a crosswind the front end starts to feel like its "flexing" I don't know how else to explain it but it is very annoying and depending how strong the wind is it makes it almost unridable. Has anyone ever experienced this and found a fix for it? I had a friend ride it and he also felt it. On a calm day it rides like a dream up to 100mph with no issue.
2003 St1300 wobble
- Thread starter Zookster
- Start date
ST1300's can be a little sensitive to crosswinds or turbulence. Mine was fine until I decided to improve the way it handled bumps. I dialed back the rear shock damping (hole in the frame right side, down low, stick a screw driver in and turn the screw on the shock) and the bike did not like that at all. When I hit a sweet spot behind a semi trailer (maybe 50-60 feet behind it) the bike wanted to dart all over the road with the turbulent air. After posting it here I was told to put it back to the stock position and that solved my problem. A rear top box can also aggravate the problem as can adjusting the preload on the rear shock. Assuming your preload adjuster is in tip top shape and the juice has not leaked out over the course of a year or so, increasing the preload will raise the rear of the bike and make it more sensitive to steering inputs (it will turn more quickly) and this too can have an effect on turbulence and crosswinds.
Of course all of the other components that make a bike handle can also have a part in this - steering head bearings, tire wear, tire air pressure, etc. Other guys will chime in here.
Of course all of the other components that make a bike handle can also have a part in this - steering head bearings, tire wear, tire air pressure, etc. Other guys will chime in here.
Tires first!
Check for proper balancing or missing rim weights. Look for uneven tread wear, as it directly impacts stability. On heavier bikes like the ST, tire sidewalls degrade faster due to the added weight. Not all tires perform equally, brand and condition are critical.
Suspension and Steering
Test for overly soft suspension.
Inspect the fork bearings for damage or wear.
Check for leaking seals and worn wheel bearings, as these can introduce play and instability.
Fuel Load Sensitivity?
Do you notice a difference in stability when the tank is full versus nearly empty? A full tank shifts the bike’s center of gravity, that could indicate an improper suspension setting.
The ST13’s geometry and rake make it particularly sensitive to small imbalances. In my experience with an ’05 model, tire brand and condition were the most influential factors in managing the wobble. Even after thorough checks, I found that tire choice and maintenance had the biggest impact on reducing, though not entirely eliminating the issue.
Good luck.
Check for proper balancing or missing rim weights. Look for uneven tread wear, as it directly impacts stability. On heavier bikes like the ST, tire sidewalls degrade faster due to the added weight. Not all tires perform equally, brand and condition are critical.
Suspension and Steering
Test for overly soft suspension.
Inspect the fork bearings for damage or wear.
Check for leaking seals and worn wheel bearings, as these can introduce play and instability.
Fuel Load Sensitivity?
Do you notice a difference in stability when the tank is full versus nearly empty? A full tank shifts the bike’s center of gravity, that could indicate an improper suspension setting.
The ST13’s geometry and rake make it particularly sensitive to small imbalances. In my experience with an ’05 model, tire brand and condition were the most influential factors in managing the wobble. Even after thorough checks, I found that tire choice and maintenance had the biggest impact on reducing, though not entirely eliminating the issue.
Good luck.
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2020
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- Makefield Highlands PA
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- 2016 ST1300P
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- 000392
Zook, welcome, just had your BBQ! as this thread develops it will have all kinds of great info. My $.02, tire pressure, preload, loosen your grip and apply more throttle. "flexing" is making me think your fighting it, it won't blow over, its 800 lbs. but the wind can push it around. Tighten your thighs against the tank and relax the hands. The bars hold the controls and help you lean, they aren't for fall off prevention. After a few more encounters with the wind you will be more confident with how she reacts.
I echo what @SMSW has said - particularly lowering the rear pre-load a bit. A little bit makes a big difference.
Plus what @Sidekick mentioned about tyres. The recommended BT020 F rated is a good baseline. The Bridgestone T30-32 GT rated, have a nicer profile but feel a little odd after the BT020 for the first few miles. The T33 looks really promising with its greately extended tyre life, but I have yet to fit them. The BT021 and 023 GT rated were never much good for me - really odd tyre wear which altered their their shape dramatically. But I think that you would notice tyres in the twisties no matter what the wind conditions.
But also - if you have rear 'top box' and you ride solo, that will buffet you around. Have you ever seen the eddy behind a rock in a fast flowing stream ? The water swirls in behind the rock from one side and then from the other, every couple of seconds. Maybe faster.
You are the rock and the wind is the water. It does exactly the same thing. If you ride solo and have a top box, the wind behind you will hit the top box first from one side and then from the other. The official Honda top box is designed to yield to this - it moves sideways on its mounts if it is fitted properly.
But there is nothing like fitting a pillion. That fills the gap, and the eddying doesn't happen at all until the wind reaches the space behind the top box. Also, removing the top box and don't ride so that you are looking through the windshield (I know some people who do - but it seems odd to me).
I was trying to find a video of this and discovered that the behaviour is known as a Vortex Street. This video shows one slowly forming. Start it from about 50 seconds in. That is the sort of thing that happens behind your back, and if you have a top box fitted, it hits the top box. If you have a pillion on the back and a top box, it will happen behind the bike so doesn't really affect you. Link to Video starting at 0:51. Your and the fairing are the white circle. The bit just behind that is what is hitting your top box. You may have to sit through adverts. I can't do anything about that.
Also - check that your front wheel has been tightened in the correct sequence. ie Undo the axle bolts and re-tighten the axle. If you don't have a giant hex driver to hold the axle while you tighten the axle bolt, then make sure that the axles end is flush with the hole on the left hand side and tightent the left (clutch side) axle pinch bolts temporarily - just while you tighten the axle bolt. Then undo the left pinch bolts and torque up the right (brake lever) side pinch bolts. Bounce the bike on its forks a few times, check that the axle is flush on the left side. and tighten the pinch bolts. You should also check the clearance between the disk at the point where it passes throught the caliper.
The above procedure is important, because if you don't do it this way it is entirely possible for you wheel to slide left and right on the axle. Probably not by much, but even a little but will make the bike feel very unstable. Tightening the axle bolt pulls the entire wheel assembly across to the right hand fork leg. Watch my animation here
Again you would notice this in the twisties, and you would probably notice that the first pull of the brake lever was everso slightly softer than subsequent pulls (because the movement of the wheel on its axle will nudge the brake pads further in to the caliper). But you will know whether or not you followed the correct procedure. But it is a 5 minute check - which you should do anyway if someone else fitted the wheel last.
You could check your bearings when the wheel is next out. Even a tiny bit of play makes a massive difference.
-----
Don't ride in the eddy of large vehilcles. If you want to go past them, beware , especially in headwinds or when the wind is blowing from the left (UK) or right (USA), there will be a massic bow wave to punch through just as you are passing the cab. Move out of the slipstream, take a wide line and just before you reach the drivers door, countersteer slightly so that your bike has a slight lean towards the cab. The aim is to be roughly just over the centre of your lane by the time you are clear of the cab. You will still get the gust, but now it wont take you by surprise or knock you off balance. It will just stand you upright for a moment.
The final thing is the impossible task. Don't tense up. Yes, I know - it is the first thing that you do when hit by a cross wind, but it does't help at all and it is impossible to achieve and its only idiots like me writing this sentence that will say it. When you are nervous about cross winds anyway, tensing up is what you do. So saying not to do it is really not very helpful.
But it is more something to aim for rather than something you can do immediately. As you ride more and more in windy weather the problem and the tension seems to go away. So it is more a case of being aware of it and getting your brain to deal with it in a different way. I've not ridden this Summer due to tearing a calf muscle putting the bike on its centre stand. I know very well that I am going to have to re-learn and that I will be grabbing the bars with a tight grip and my forearm muscle will pump up like Popeye's. My brain has learned how to limp. The leg doesn't hurt any more, but I still limp. I'm having to re-learn how to walk.
Be aware that you are doing it when it is windy and force yourself to hold the bars rather than grab them.
Here in the Yorkshire Dales, we have roads lined with dry stone walls. they are all over the place dividing the countryside into fields. A legacy from the early 1500s and King Henry VIII. In cross winds you get a bit of shelter from the walls - and then when you pass a gateway you get a sudden blast from the side. So as well as the potholes, the stray sheep, the cow, horse and sheep dropping, gravel from the farm tracks washed down across the road surface - I have to keep an eye open for the gates in the wall - 'cos the wind blows straight through them.
The ST1100 was much worse for cross wind - or pehaps I got better at dealing with it. The ST1300 was very twitchy in comparison when I first made the switch, and it was desperately bad if I forgot to take off the preload that I had added for 2-up touring with camping gear. Knocking the pre-load down a bit helped to get used to it. But It doesn't bother me at all now.
Except open moorland in very strong winds.
Plus what @Sidekick mentioned about tyres. The recommended BT020 F rated is a good baseline. The Bridgestone T30-32 GT rated, have a nicer profile but feel a little odd after the BT020 for the first few miles. The T33 looks really promising with its greately extended tyre life, but I have yet to fit them. The BT021 and 023 GT rated were never much good for me - really odd tyre wear which altered their their shape dramatically. But I think that you would notice tyres in the twisties no matter what the wind conditions.
But also - if you have rear 'top box' and you ride solo, that will buffet you around. Have you ever seen the eddy behind a rock in a fast flowing stream ? The water swirls in behind the rock from one side and then from the other, every couple of seconds. Maybe faster.
You are the rock and the wind is the water. It does exactly the same thing. If you ride solo and have a top box, the wind behind you will hit the top box first from one side and then from the other. The official Honda top box is designed to yield to this - it moves sideways on its mounts if it is fitted properly.
But there is nothing like fitting a pillion. That fills the gap, and the eddying doesn't happen at all until the wind reaches the space behind the top box. Also, removing the top box and don't ride so that you are looking through the windshield (I know some people who do - but it seems odd to me).
I was trying to find a video of this and discovered that the behaviour is known as a Vortex Street. This video shows one slowly forming. Start it from about 50 seconds in. That is the sort of thing that happens behind your back, and if you have a top box fitted, it hits the top box. If you have a pillion on the back and a top box, it will happen behind the bike so doesn't really affect you. Link to Video starting at 0:51. Your and the fairing are the white circle. The bit just behind that is what is hitting your top box. You may have to sit through adverts. I can't do anything about that.
Also - check that your front wheel has been tightened in the correct sequence. ie Undo the axle bolts and re-tighten the axle. If you don't have a giant hex driver to hold the axle while you tighten the axle bolt, then make sure that the axles end is flush with the hole on the left hand side and tightent the left (clutch side) axle pinch bolts temporarily - just while you tighten the axle bolt. Then undo the left pinch bolts and torque up the right (brake lever) side pinch bolts. Bounce the bike on its forks a few times, check that the axle is flush on the left side. and tighten the pinch bolts. You should also check the clearance between the disk at the point where it passes throught the caliper.
The above procedure is important, because if you don't do it this way it is entirely possible for you wheel to slide left and right on the axle. Probably not by much, but even a little but will make the bike feel very unstable. Tightening the axle bolt pulls the entire wheel assembly across to the right hand fork leg. Watch my animation here
Again you would notice this in the twisties, and you would probably notice that the first pull of the brake lever was everso slightly softer than subsequent pulls (because the movement of the wheel on its axle will nudge the brake pads further in to the caliper). But you will know whether or not you followed the correct procedure. But it is a 5 minute check - which you should do anyway if someone else fitted the wheel last.
You could check your bearings when the wheel is next out. Even a tiny bit of play makes a massive difference.
-----
Don't ride in the eddy of large vehilcles. If you want to go past them, beware , especially in headwinds or when the wind is blowing from the left (UK) or right (USA), there will be a massic bow wave to punch through just as you are passing the cab. Move out of the slipstream, take a wide line and just before you reach the drivers door, countersteer slightly so that your bike has a slight lean towards the cab. The aim is to be roughly just over the centre of your lane by the time you are clear of the cab. You will still get the gust, but now it wont take you by surprise or knock you off balance. It will just stand you upright for a moment.
The final thing is the impossible task. Don't tense up. Yes, I know - it is the first thing that you do when hit by a cross wind, but it does't help at all and it is impossible to achieve and its only idiots like me writing this sentence that will say it. When you are nervous about cross winds anyway, tensing up is what you do. So saying not to do it is really not very helpful.
But it is more something to aim for rather than something you can do immediately. As you ride more and more in windy weather the problem and the tension seems to go away. So it is more a case of being aware of it and getting your brain to deal with it in a different way. I've not ridden this Summer due to tearing a calf muscle putting the bike on its centre stand. I know very well that I am going to have to re-learn and that I will be grabbing the bars with a tight grip and my forearm muscle will pump up like Popeye's. My brain has learned how to limp. The leg doesn't hurt any more, but I still limp. I'm having to re-learn how to walk.
Be aware that you are doing it when it is windy and force yourself to hold the bars rather than grab them.
Here in the Yorkshire Dales, we have roads lined with dry stone walls. they are all over the place dividing the countryside into fields. A legacy from the early 1500s and King Henry VIII. In cross winds you get a bit of shelter from the walls - and then when you pass a gateway you get a sudden blast from the side. So as well as the potholes, the stray sheep, the cow, horse and sheep dropping, gravel from the farm tracks washed down across the road surface - I have to keep an eye open for the gates in the wall - 'cos the wind blows straight through them.
The ST1100 was much worse for cross wind - or pehaps I got better at dealing with it. The ST1300 was very twitchy in comparison when I first made the switch, and it was desperately bad if I forgot to take off the preload that I had added for 2-up touring with camping gear. Knocking the pre-load down a bit helped to get used to it. But It doesn't bother me at all now.
Except open moorland in very strong winds.
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Don't you think that tire manufactures would design a tire for heavier bikes . I'm sure they would not want lawsuits do to sidewall failure. Isn't that the reason for load rating? A K1200lt uses the same size tire as a st1100. The k model weights over 825 lbs, st weighs about 650. So the lt should flex a lot more on a k bike but it uses a different load range tire to compensate for sidewall flex.
Bridgestone Do, For the BT020 - they are the ones that are designated with an 'F' Rating.
For the BT0021 , BT023, T30, T31, T32 the tyre for the ST1300 was designated with the GT symbol.
The new T33 is suitable for all bikes - heavy and light.
Other manufacturers 'may' make tyres that are suitable for all weights of Bikes. I don't know.
The ST1100 is actually heavier than the ST1300, yet it does not require the GT rated BT023 tyre. I once queried why their website was recommending the standard BT023 tyre for the ST1100 when it was the GT spec that was required for the lighter ST1300.
This was their response:
Yes, the BT-023 standard version is approved for the ST1100 as advised in my previous mail.
The BT-023 GT was indeed produced for heavier bikes but that does not mean it will work to the required standard on all heavy bikes. It actually works very well on some much lighter bikes too. All tyres have to be tested and one cannot just assume that because the bike is heavy the GT spec is the tyre to use.
The standard is not “just approved for the ST1100 because we do not make a GT version!” It’s approved because we have tested it and it passes our stringent test criteria. We do not just recommend a pair of tyres without testing them first or because another variant is not made in a particular size.
It’s not just about weight, it’s about the whole make-up of the bike, like the quality of the suspension. Tyres have their own unique self-damping properties and sometimes the standard tyre will suit a particular bike better, even if it’s a heavy bike!
Apart from an interesting snippet of information, it demonstrates the rigour that Bridegstone put into the testing of their tyres for particular bikes. We ride fully loaded often with camping gear (or used to until recently). The knowledge that they test them thoroughly rather than just make a size that fits, is worth a lot to me.
I always use Bridgestone. Honda do specify a Dunlop as well - my previous bike came with those new and I really didn't like them - the way that they wore or the sensitivity to white lines.
Private message sent, give me a call when you have a minute.
Same finding for me, not dangerous but annoying especially in wet condition.
It was my understanding that the GT designation on tires meant it had a stiffer sidewall than a similar tire (i.e. same model, no GT designation). Or am I wrong?
My '10 ST tended to kick me in the bottom when I rode over RR crossings (and those asphalt expansion humps on the freeway). I got the bright idea to decrease the rear shock damping...and then the bike did not like turbulent air. Restoring the damping to stock position (Service Manual: "Initial setting: 1 turn out from full hard") returned my bike to what I considered normal handling. I weigh around 14 stone 2 and always ride alone. My bike had a generic top box. Not long after that experience I installed Gold Valves in my forks and 6 months later, sent the rear shock off to RaceTech for rear gold valves.
@Zookster, I always tried to pass Semi's and other large trucks quickly and literally punch through their bow wave at 5 to 10 mph faster than they were moving. Two reasons. One of our retired truck drivers once told me that front tires on big rigs can explode and will damage a car that is alongside. Yeah, I recognize this is relatively rare and I've never seen it happen, but I see little advantage to dawdling adjacent to the front of a truck. I found by experimentation that the bike handled better moving through that wave quickly. I was not about to up the speed enough to attract the attention of any LEOs so I kept my speed at reasonable (if extralegal) levels. I also discovered that the bike was WAY more capable than I was at most of what I wanted to do aboard it and I needed to trust its stability. I did however, do my best to make sure it was mechanically in tip top condition.
I upgraded to 0.90 RaceTech fork springs and 7.5WT, which helped reduce harshness slightly, but the ride is still too stiff and jarring, especially on long trips. At 170 lbs., both the rear spring and fork feel overly bouncy, making rides exhausting.
The factory rear shock rebound setting is also very inefficient, even closed to max.
I’m curious about your experience with Gold Valves compared to the stock setup. How much of an improvement did they make in terms of comfort, control, and overall ride quality? Did they help smooth out the harshness, or was the difference more subtle?
First, I sold my ST some years ago because of its habit of getting heavier and taller year by year. Second, I am not an aggressive rider. Yes, at an STOC event, I was able to ride in the middle of the pack and even advance toward the front. When I found myself behind a good rider, I mimicked his moves and was exhilarated to find how easily and smoothly the bike took the curves. Before Gold Valves I found the heat induced expansion bumps on the freeway just short of painful - jarring is putting it mildly. If I did not slow down going over RR crossings, I was almost bumped out of the saddle. Yes, I learned quickly to make like a dirt rider and absorb some of the shock in my legs. After Gold Valves in the forks (springs remained the same - total sag was dead on 'spec' - 37.583mm) the freeway bumps were best described as being spread out. Instead of hitting a curb, I was going up a ramp and down a ramp. The back of the bike still walloped me in the butt so several months later I sent the rear shock off to RT for a GV upgrade. They gave me a new spring (despite my protests that I did not want the bike taller than it was) as well as the GV. The improvement in the rear was similar to the front but not as pronounced or obvious. Pushing my limits (I think I was riding at about 8/10ths of my capabilities at the STOC event described above - and that was with GV) the bike felt planted and more solid than before the GV. On a one occasion when I entered a turn a bit fast, I consciously leaned over a bit more (than I was comfortable with) and was amazed at how the bike simply took that in stride. After GV the bike smoothed out the bumps (sure, I could still feel them) and felt rock solid in curves. The ride was not what I would call plush, but it was confidence inspiring. Clearly the bike was more capable than I was. Heck, the bike was more capable before the GV than I, but it wasn't as smooth about it. My ST was never bouncy and I'd not describe the ride before or after as too stiff and jarring. I weigh 170 in full gear, always ride solo and did more than a few 5 - 600 mile rides.
The only harshness I felt was over abrupt bumps - freeway and RR crossings before. Afterward, the bumps were bumps, but more mild. I think some of the descriptors used are people specific. I now ride a NC750x and on another forum somebody complained how he feels every bump, the suspension is harsh, etc. etc. My NC is box stock (well, it was when I bought it) but I never felt that way about it. I wonder about individual perceptions or expectations.
A wealthy customer of mine bought a very high end 911 - it was probably just short of a street legal race car. His house manager was tasked with driving it to the dealership for service and I asked him what the ride was like. He said it was awful, you could feel every little crack in the pavement and potholes knocked your fillings loose. I suspect get that car up to 3 digit speeds and it would be glued to the road. In the same way, my ST was happy when I pushed it a bit, but around town the bumps and road feel were still there. Does that help?
Oh, and yes, I would spend the thou $ for the same improvement again. One caveat. I asked RT to replace the shock's preload hose. I figured a newly rebuilt shock should have all wear items new. Their end fitting (preload adjuster end) had a longer crimp barrel than the OEM fitting and the hose did not like the 90º bend that was necessry. I'd not replace that part were I to do this again. Despite what I said to RT, I think they are performance oriented and want to give customers a sporty ride vs a plush ride. After the rear spring/shock rebuild the bike did sit higher. Initially I thought the bike was not as plush as I had wanted it to be. It did not take long for me to revise that opinion. The way the bike felt in curves fixed that. I have a 29" inseam - well I did when I got the bike and despite a slightly lowered seat, could never flat foot the bike. the GV shock upgrade exacerbated that. They wanted me to upgrade the fork springs, but based on advice here, I declined - stock springs were supposed to handle my weight.
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you are correct my point is that even if you don't run a gt tire the sidewall won't degrade as long as tire pressure and loads are in specs and the correct load rating is used. GT and non gt tires have the same load range.
Your comments about the riding quality without the upgrade are spot on and I totally share the same riding experience.
In my opinion, there is also a huge difference that one brand of tires could make compared to another, but I don't want to hijack the thread!
The Gold Valves and RaceTech shock upgrade would be half of the value of my 100K miles ST, but at least I know now that it would be worth it.
One last thing, I find surprising that the ST is often described as "underspring" as mine totally feels "overspring" and hard as a piece of wood, this even with the lightest fork oil I could find.
Thank you so much, all the answers I was looking for are here!
gt and non gt have the same load rating, this does not mean a non gt tires sidewall will degrade on an st. which someone stated, thats not the case as bridgestone states
"Don't you think that tire manufactures would design a tire for heavier bikes ." answer, they do. you can find a 160/70 17 tire in a 73 load range and a 79 load range.
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There is a little known problem with ST1300's that many owners do not know about. One of the discoveries made years ago in the UK, when Police bikes had wobble and weaving problems. Honda did an investigation and it was found that loose engine mounts can allow the frame to flex as the engine is a structural member for the frame. There were changes made to the engine mounts and tighter tolerances made in manufacturing to help prevent this. Anyway, it would be wise to check all the engine mount bolts to insure they are good and tight.
Think about it like this to make sense of what is happening behind undersprung and overdamped descriptions.
Measured rider sag on a stock 1300 shows they are undersprung for most riders and the fact they react harshly “like a piece of wood” when a sharp bump is encountered underscores they have too much high speed damping - overdamped. They feel soft and plush over bumps that are absorbed slowly but if the fork has to absorb a fast hard bump it cannot pass fork oil fast enough through the stock cartridge so the bump is passed into the handlebars and seat. Gold Valves and other similar upgrades allow the fork and shock to absorb the fast hard bumps without hydraulically locking up.
"hydraulically locking" is the obvious part I wasn't aware and this a very helpful explanation.
Thank you.
Wow, where are these measurements still being used?? I thought the entire world (besides the USA use lbs.) use kg.
LOL, I just read a Dick Francis (well, his son, Felix Francis has picked up the series) novel. Besides, @jfheath would understand.