2006 ST1300 w/61K miles - should I rebuild the brakes?

Surprised nobody pointed out the EBC pads (non-OEM), or the wear mark on the stopper plug. Looks like its been pounding the rear caliper mounting bracket.
I can't see from the pictures provided, but it also appears to have damage inside the hole where the stopper plug sits.
If you could take a picture of the rear caliper, from the right side of the bike, through the wheel, so we could see the front pad retaining clip, to see how worn the attachment point is, we could direct you further, and offer more advice.
 
@draser - The tab end of the pad - the opposite end to the hole where the pad pins fit - sits inside a stainless clip the fits in the recess in the caliper. This is a snug fit.

1723101624662.pngThis clip is supposed to be glued in place with a specified strong flexible glue. If it isn't, over the years the vibration and movement may cause the recess in the caliper to wear at the bottom. This puts the pad out of alignment and the result of this is that the caliper itself is slightly misaligned.

This is difficult to spot - although the tag that holds that clip in place can be seen through the wheel from the right hand side. When new it sits centrally on a raised rectangular part of the caliper casting. As the clip recess wears, that clip moves down. See the gap arrowed, and the below centre position of the in the picture.

Another symptom is that the caliper starts to move in non- linear ways and the result of this reveals itself by odd wear and marking on the stopper bolt and in the stopper bolt hole. That and the aftermarket pads are both relevant observations.

It has been observed that some aftermarket pads may not fit properly and that this could speed up this wearing behaviour.
 
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Just having a hard time understanding how that explains this:
John already provided a good explanation, so I won't bore you with more, however, here is a picture of the rear caliper mounting bracket (damage) due to a failed SMC, which caused the rear brakes to drag, which put pressure downward on the lower edge of the clip, which wore it away, which allowed it to dance around, pounding the stopper bolt (steel) into the caliper mounting bracket (aluminum).
This type of damage can also be caused by improper sequence when assembling the rear wheel, by tightening the axle nut BEFORE the stopper plug etc.
20190506_164109_1557186316458_001.jpg20190506_161825.jpg
 
Guys, I understand all the issues the rear caliper bracket may have and, even though I may not agree with all of it I don't want to hijack the post. But, the last problem statement is:

Both wheels are dragging on the new Honda pads

So, since both wheels drag and we know the correlation between the front left and rear calipers, I believe this is a logical troubleshooting path. Or, if the belief is the front/rear dragging issues are independent in this case, we need to argue why.
 
You asked the question, so I answered it. Whether you agree or not is entirely up to you - but I'm happy to discuss if you want another thread.

@SirSquid1300 said that his new pads are dragging. We really need to know if he means making a ssshhhhing noise when the wheels are turned - which I find happens every time I install a new set of pads, or whether it means that it is impossible or difficult to turn the wheels.

We wont hear immediately because he says he has foot surgery tomorrow. Good luck with that @SirSquid1300. Hope you are up and hobbling around again soon !
 
Surprised nobody pointed out the EBC pads (non-OEM), or the wear mark on the stopper plug. Looks like its been pounding the rear caliper mounting bracket.
I can't see from the pictures provided, but it also appears to have damage inside the hole where the stopper plug sits.
If you could take a picture of the rear caliper, from the right side of the bike, through the wheel, so we could see the front pad retaining clip, to see how worn the attachment point is, we could direct you further, and offer more advice.
Hey @Igofar Those pads were the old pads I replaced with Honda OEM. The stopper bolt and pad retainer clip were replaced with new parts as well. Once I get back home, I'll send some pictures. I don't remember seeing any excessive wear on the bracket, but I could be wrong. Are we saying a worn or damaged bracket could cause both wheels to drag?
 
You asked the question, so I answered it. Whether you agree or not is entirely up to you - but I'm happy to discuss if you want another thread.

@SirSquid1300 said that his new pads are dragging. We really need to know if he means making a ssshhhhing noise when the wheels are turned - which I find happens every time I install a new set of pads, or whether it means that it is impossible or difficult to turn the wheels.

We wont hear immediately because he says he has foot surgery tomorrow. Good luck with that @SirSquid1300. Hope you are up and hobbling around again soon !
Thanks @jfheath. The surgery went well - now comes six weeks of recovery before I'm released from this giant surgical boot. When I try rotating the wheels, I can only get about a quarter turn (front and rear). I can definitely hear that sssshhhhing sound you described. I'm really confused as to what is causing this, especially since I replaced the SMC, all caliper seals and pistons.
 
Could improperly bleeding the brakes lend to them binding? I watched a YouTube video (linked below) of a guy bleeding the PCV. He had his SMC tilted way more than I did. I also pumped the front brake accidentally thinking it would push fluid through the PCV. My manual didn't specify which master cylinder needed to actuated. Once I realized I needed to pump the rear master cylinder, I simply started pumping the rear instead. Could pumping the front master cylinder instead of rear cause the brakes to drag?

 
Could improperly bleeding the brakes lend to them binding? I watched a YouTube video (linked below) of a guy bleeding the PCV. He had his SMC tilted way more than I did. I also pumped the front brake accidentally thinking it would push fluid through the PCV. My manual didn't specify which master cylinder needed to actuated. Once I realized I needed to pump the rear master cylinder, I simply started pumping the rear instead. Could pumping the front master cylinder instead of rear cause the brakes to drag?
The SMC is supposed to be raised so that the cylinder is anywhere between 0 degrees and 15 degrees. The idea is that any air in that cylinder cannot float to the plunger (left hand) end of the piston. It needs to flow out of the outlet valve - it can then escape when you open up the PCV bleed valve near the left hand igntion coil.

The front master cylinder - by which I assume that you mean the brake lever on the right hand handlebars - operates only on the two outer pistons on each of the front calipers. Once that is bled and your lever feels firm - there is nothing more to do with that. That circuit is hydraulically separate from the complex rear master cylinder and SMC circuit.

This article that I produced has a series of diagrams which show and explain the fluid flow. It is a good aid to understanding the hydraulics.

Having air in the system isn't going to cause your brakes to drag. Ever.

Pumping fluid through the system with the rear brake pedal works well, but also when the SMC is tilted and the PCV bleed valve is open, it is good practice to pump the SMC back and forth. You get a feel for how well it is pumping; you can get a full stroke of the piston which helps to clear out any old fluid (It normally only moves a coumple of mm); and you can feel if there is any drag or obstruction inside the bore. When pushed so that the plunger is in a direct line, the movement should be smooth. If you tilt the plunger - it is possible that the piston will be tilted and catch on the cylinder bore. But you have replaced the entire SMC - so that shouldn't be an issue.

Pumping the front lever should not cause the front wheel to drag. The pistons should release when you let go of the lever. It certainly will not affect the rear brake.
Is the drag just at the rear wheel or at the front as well ?

We need to isolate the cause of the drag. Is it the brake pads, the calipers, the bearings or the wheel fitment that is causing the drag. That isn't a question for you to answer on here, it is what you need to find out for yourself.

Remove the pads. Check for wheel rotation without the pads in place. IT isn't going to get better than that - but if the wheel isn't rotating, that needs to beaddressed first !

If the wheel rotates without the pads in place then Possible causes include: Incorrectly seated pad spring, incorrect chrome retaining clip (front and rear are different); incorrect pads fitted (eg front pads used in rear) - the pads you showed were not Handa pads - possibly EBC - The fit has been reported to be inconsistent; Location of pads in relation to the tag on the pad spring is wrong; pad pins are cross threaded and not parallel; .....

While you have the pads out, check how easily the calipers move into and away from the wheel. Grab a handful and push it in. You should be able to move the caliper all the way in so that the pistons touch the brake disk/rotor, and (I think) it should pull all the way back so that the rear side of the caliper touches the rotor. (Just watch out for grease on the caliper getting onto your brake disks). Pause after each movement - see if the caliper starts to return by itself. Also be aware that it is possible for the pad pins - on which the caliper slides - to be bent or not parallel. If this is the case, the caliper will move easily initially and then it will resist further movement.

If you think that it is the pads/pistons - then the next thing is to find out which and why. Rear pedal operates all three pistons on the rear. Centre pistons on the front. The SMC operates just the two outer pistons on the rear. Strips of paper or feeler guages. held in place when the brake pedal is applied - should be easy to remove when pressure is released. This can be used to identify pistons that are stuck.

Be very careful when you have the pads out that you do not apply the brake pedals or levers. Popping a piston and all of its fluid is a pain.

Read the link that I posted in my previous post - Avoiding the pitfalls. Anything that you don't understand, ask. I wrote it a long time back and a lot of people have learned a lot from it - probably noone more than me ! That covers most things.

Which model ST1300 do you have ? (It'll be on the white label on the frame under the seat). eg ST1300 A9). The brakes changed in 2008.
 
The SMC is supposed to be raised so that the cylinder is anywhere between 0 degrees and 15 degrees. The idea is that any air in that cylinder cannot float to the plunger (left hand) end of the piston. It needs to flow out of the outlet valve - it can then escape when you open up the PCV bleed valve near the left hand igntion coil.

The front master cylinder - by which I assume that you mean the brake lever on the right hand handlebars - operates only on the two outer pistons on each of the front calipers. Once that is bled and your lever feels firm - there is nothing more to do with that. That circuit is hydraulically separate from the complex rear master cylinder and SMC circuit.

This article that I produced has a series of diagrams which show and explain the fluid flow. It is a good aid to understanding the hydraulics.

Having air in the system isn't going to cause your brakes to drag. Ever.

Pumping fluid through the system with the rear brake pedal works well, but also when the SMC is tilted and the PCV bleed valve is open, it is good practice to pump the SMC back and forth. You get a feel for how well it is pumping; you can get a full stroke of the piston which helps to clear out any old fluid (It normally only moves a coumple of mm); and you can feel if there is any drag or obstruction inside the bore. When pushed so that the plunger is in a direct line, the movement should be smooth. If you tilt the plunger - it is possible that the piston will be tilted and catch on the cylinder bore. But you have replaced the entire SMC - so that shouldn't be an issue.

Pumping the front lever should not cause the front wheel to drag. The pistons should release when you let go of the lever. It certainly will not affect the rear brake.
Is the drag just at the rear wheel or at the front as well ?

We need to isolate the cause of the drag. Is it the brake pads, the calipers, the bearings or the wheel fitment that is causing the drag. That isn't a question for you to answer on here, it is what you need to find out for yourself.

Remove the pads. Check for wheel rotation without the pads in place. IT isn't going to get better than that - but if the wheel isn't rotating, that needs to beaddressed first !

If the wheel rotates without the pads in place then Possible causes include: Incorrectly seated pad spring, incorrect chrome retaining clip (front and rear are different); incorrect pads fitted (eg front pads used in rear) - the pads you showed were not Handa pads - possibly EBC - The fit has been reported to be inconsistent; Location of pads in relation to the tag on the pad spring is wrong; pad pins are cross threaded and not parallel; .....

While you have the pads out, check how easily the calipers move into and away from the wheel. Grab a handful and push it in. You should be able to move the caliper all the way in so that the pistons touch the brake disk/rotor, and (I think) it should pull all the way back so that the rear side of the caliper touches the rotor. (Just watch out for grease on the caliper getting onto your brake disks). Pause after each movement - see if the caliper starts to return by itself. Also be aware that it is possible for the pad pins - on which the caliper slides - to be bent or not parallel. If this is the case, the caliper will move easily initially and then it will resist further movement.

If you think that it is the pads/pistons - then the next thing is to find out which and why. Rear pedal operates all three pistons on the rear. Centre pistons on the front. The SMC operates just the two outer pistons on the rear. Strips of paper or feeler guages. held in place when the brake pedal is applied - should be easy to remove when pressure is released. This can be used to identify pistons that are stuck.

Be very careful when you have the pads out that you do not apply the brake pedals or levers. Popping a piston and all of its fluid is a pain.

Read the link that I posted in my previous post - Avoiding the pitfalls. Anything that you don't understand, ask. I wrote it a long time back and a lot of people have learned a lot from it - probably noone more than me ! That covers most things.

Which model ST1300 do you have ? (It'll be on the white label on the frame under the seat). eg ST1300 A9). The brakes changed in 2008.
@jfheath Hi John. The front and rear are dragging. All pads, front and rear, have been replaced with Honda OEM; the EBC pads were installed by the PO. I have a 2006 ABS model.

I did read your article and may have found a few leads. I didn't know that the spring pad had clips to retain the brake pad on the opposite side of the pistons. Your article seemed to imply that if the spring pad was installed incorrectly, it could cause dragging. The retaining pin could also be another culprit I will investigate along with wear patterns on the rear caliper bracket.

The other lead I have in mind are the slide pins and potentially a case of air lock as I did apply a more than generous amount of grease to the pins.

I also found a few more leads through this thread as well: https://www.st-owners.com/forums/threads/all-brakes-dragging.185469/page-2

In the worst case scenario, I fear that the stainless steel caliper pistons I ordered from Brakecrafters might be out of spec for the caliper bores and are sticking. Or I have brake lines that are shot - this bike is 19 years old after all and brake lines have never been touched.

If you think I missed anything, please let me know.
 
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Any one of those things could be the culprit.

When the dragging occurs, I assume that you are talking about when the bike is stationary on its centre stand ??

But all three pads are dragging ? That white heat shield that fits between the back of the pad and the thin chrome anti squeal plate ?
You mustn't fit one of these to the front pads.

Before you remove anything. bike in neutral on centre stand. Lie on floor next to bike and turn the rear wheel with your foot. Operate the smc on the left front forks by pushing the top of the caliper by hand towards the fork. turn the rear wheel with your foot. The wheel should lock solid. But more importantly it should release as soon as you release the front caliper.

I don't for a moment think that this is the issue, but just to get rid of any niggles. If you remove your front pads first, do your rear pads still drag ? (Wondering if the needle roller bearing for the left caliper bracket lower mount bolt is seized)

The reason I wanted to know the year is because the 2008 and later models have a modified caliper design with a different pad spring. Your 2006 model has the same pad spring front and back. It is possible to install any of those the wrong way round.


If you can post photos of parts before and after you take them off, we might be able to spot something.
Also, that photo that Larry requested - of the rear caliper from the right hand side looking through the spokes - like the one that I posted.
 
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Hi Everyone. I took the advice someone had offered in an article I linked earlier. I went to each bleed nipple and vented them to relieve pressure. Well, that little trick worked... for the rear at least. The front wheel is now the only drag (har, har, har). I pulled both calipers to check for stuck pistons. None were sticking. The only issue I noticed is that the center piston on both front calipers tended to pop back out (just a little - 1 to 2 mm) when I would press it back in. The slide pins moved freely - no air lock noticeable what so ever.

Then finally, I also scraped off the CRB Disk Brake Quiet product from my pads. I was keeping the perforated shroud from moving freely. I wiped a thin layer of Permatex Silicone Ceramic Extreme brake parts lubricant on it instead. I can't confirm this did anything for me to be honest. The rear caliper still has this product on it and it's moving freely.

Does anyone have a picture of how far back I need to tilt the SMC?

1724043417255.jpeg
 
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These are not automotive brake pads, I would urge you not to put anything on the back of the pads.
Honda does not require it, nor suggest it.
:WCP1:
 
These are not automotive brake pads, I would urge you not to put anything on the back of the pads.
Honda does not require it, nor suggest it.
:WCP1:
Just who I hoped would hop on! Yes, I completely agree. This is why I am posting it here - in hopes someone will read this and make their insurance company more happy. To my credit... I also had the right of mind, to spin the wheels on the centerstand after my brief test ride.

Any idea why the rear works, but the front doesn't? When I say the rear works, I mean it does 1 to 1.25 rotations in neutral. The front only gets half, even after the rear wheel seemed to be "rectified".
 
The rear wheel should get 2-3 full revolutions IF the brake system is working correctly.
There are several things that can cause the front wheel to drag as well.
Try giving me a call tomorrow afternoon and I'll go through some of them with you.
:WCP1:
 
Hey @Igofar, here are the pictures you requested. I have yet to remove that red tacky stuff from the pads so just pretend like it isn't there for the time being :).
 

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Here are pictures of the rear brake bracket. Looks like there's wear, but does it need to be replaced?
 

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If you want it to work correctly, and safely, the short version answer is YES.
You'll also need to order the rubber boot as well, since they tend to get swollen and grabby, when folks use brake cleaner spray on them.
 
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