Another 40A alternator alternative solution - verified after running...

Sorry, :( your attachment links in poSTs 18 and 19 result in a vBulletin Message:

"Invalid Attachment specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator."

I think I'm grasping your bolt hole modifications and spacers, but would it have been possible to just shorten the tip of this Denso's splined shaft so spacers would be unnecessary? Just curious.

And yes, the 28amper uses all 4 bolt holes in the engine case. I'd forgotten the one at 7 o'clock is a 'through hole.'

John

John OoSTerhuis, STOC 1058, 1991 SSMST1100 - The Grey GhOOST (now @ 186K)
Multi-task: check out: ST-Riders - The LiST
My tech/maint/service pictures: link
 
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MaxPete said:
Jeff: this great info for 1300 people! Can you provide part numbers for the low cost replacements?

Pete
Click to expand...

I was not successful in finding a low cost rectifier replacement but there are a number of sources for a low cost regulator. All you have to do is cross reference or Google the number on the regulator itself which is 126000-1160. I had to remove the regulator and turn it over to find the number. There may be a low cost rectifier available but as there's no number on the assembly itself and the Honda part number, like the regulator, doesn't cross reference to anything, it's be a trial and error exercise. Here's where I got mine:

http://store.alternatorparts.com/partnoin255.aspx
 
HI John,

Ive fixed the broken attachment path/upload - I think - It shows the images ok for me when I look at the post.

Re shortening the tip. I measured the tip protrusion relative to the extruded and machined lip - as I recall both the yam denso and the honda denso where close so that means yes you could shorten the tip but the splines cut in the rotor axle may not be long enough to seat further in. The front face of the lip may then fowl the machined part of the engine casing as well. I'd need to look at an engine with the alt out to be sure. Might work though.
I recall thinking about machining (or filing) the lip so that the yam denso was exactly the same as the honda - but decided against it incase I ended up forcing the rotor axle too far into the baring race. It would be tricky to do without a lathe or milling machine. A neater solution to just washers could be to make a 2.5 plate which combines the spacer and would act as a seal for the exposed part of the lip. This is what the chap who developed the #bandit# alternator solution did. Again tricky and slow to make without a steel plate laser cutter.

I made lots of measurements during the process but checking my notes now shows I wasn't methodical enough about making sure I kept them after I finished.(Grr).
I have got my drawing of the lip outer diameter and axle diameter they are 87mm and 14.2 mm respectively. The yam denso, honda (40A) denso, and bandit alternators are
the same in this regard - except the bandit does not have the 18T spline fitting tip. (I had a bandit alternator given to me by a mechanic when I MOTed my bike.).
Looking at the ST1300 alternator it looks the same at the honda 40a part (are there any differences??) so the yam denso might MIGHT also fit st1300's. I don't have a ST1300 alternator so someone else on this thread does (possibly Jeff?) might want to check.

Anyway here's the pic of it in situ - Ive left the plastic panel off so I can keep I eye on the bolts and possibly help keep the alt cool.



DSC04131A.jpg
 
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John,
FYI this pic is from an OzSTOC ( JohnnyYTED) page http://ozstoc.com/index.php?topic=6996.0;prev_next=prev#new
Shows the 'unused' lug on a post 96 Pan at 7o'clock which as John showed IS used in the 28A pre-96 pan.

From the doc you sent when you were explaining the 28a-to/40a conversion it looks like the 28a rotor axle is reused and fitted to the 40amp alt, and that (page scan), it does not have a splined rotor axle - is that right? In which case to use the yam denso in a 28amper pan you would have to split the alt and hope the yams internals fitted the 28a part.
Correct me if i'm wrong.

20140606_113559_zpsgsa0w0m8.jpg
 
No, Alistair, the document/schematic I poSTed in poST #13 is of an exploded view of the 40amper's Alternator Shaft Assembly. To do the upgrade you have to buy the shaft, base plate, and bearing (items #12, 13, and unnumbered shaft) parts that the 40amper uses. The other parts transferred from the 28amper's Alt Shaft Assy are of course common to both of them (split gears, flywheel, bearing etc, as noted in the annotated schematic). I'm away from my PC at the moment so can't post what the 28amper's Alt Shaft Assy looks like, but it's a different design.

You're constructing/assembling a 40amper's Alternator Shaft Assembly from parts from both systems.

John

John OoSTerhuis, STOC 1058, 1991 SSMST1100 - The Grey GhOOST (now @ 186K)
Multi-task: check out: ST-Riders - The LiST
My tech/maint/service pictures: link
 
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OK John I think i'm beginning to get the conversion process. Page 3 of your gallery has what I think is like an exploded view of all the parts needed for the conversion laid out left to right with the 40a alt extreme right hand side. Is that correct? The 'unnumbered shaft' presumably supports the bearing which in turn is fitted to the 'base plate' and allows the 40a amp alt shaft to interface to the drive mechanism. Have I got it right now?
 
FYI - pic of the yam denso 100211-4930 alt. The lip is machined about 12mm deep, the std honda denso one is 10mm. Note the 3 bolt heads near the shaft tip - they may casue clearance issues if you dont use washer/spacers (that just occurred to me). Also the 100211-4930 part (apparently is also used by the FZR750 and thunderace according to the ebay add I just got this pic from...). Also the 100211-4930 is slightly shorter (a few mm) and narrower (aagain by just a couple of mm - whcih might help fitment in the 28A alt pans.

100211-4930.jpg
 
amackay99 said:
OK John I think i'm beginning to get the conversion process. Page 3 of your gallery has what I think is like an exploded view of all the parts needed for the conversion laid out left to right with the 40a alt extreme right hand side. Is that correct? The 'unnumbered shaft' presumably supports the bearing which in turn is fitted to the 'base plate' and allows the 40a amp alt shaft to interface to the drive mechanism. Have I got it right now?
Click to expand...

Bingo! All the parts to the left of the shaft are common to both the 28 and 40 amp systems. Hence, if you're upgrading from the 28amper, transfer those parts to make up a complete 40amper's alt shaft assy.

edit: still wondering what are the amp/watt ratings of these adapted alternators. I'm not going to download one of the free online copies of the service manual to find out.

John
 
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Great - so if I understand it then yes someone with an 28Amp'd pan , after buying the 3 parts you showed, could use the yam denso alt instead of the ?xpensive honda alt , but would need to get the circular x-section file out and modify those lugs.
 
amackay99 said:
Great - so if I understand it then yes someone with an 28Amp'd pan , after buying the 3 parts you showed, could use the yam denso alt instead of the ?xpensive honda alt , but would need to get the circular x-section file out and modify those lugs.
Click to expand...

Basically... yes. But if the 'Yam denso alt' puts out less watts/amps than the 28amp OEM, is it worth it? That was the problem with the Bandit alt one fellow adapted, IINM. What was that... only 13 amps? It takes at least ~17amps to run an ST1100.

John
 
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John OoSTerhuis said:
Basically... yes. But if the 'Yam denso alt' puts out less watts/amps than the 28amp OEM, is it worth it? That was the problem with the Bandit alt one fellow adapted, IINM. What was that... only 13 amps? It takes at least ~17amps to run an ST1100.

John
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Ah good point - I suppose its also related to why change up to 40a? If its to get that extra power and not because your 28a is faulty then yes its pointless.
Ive run mine now for nearly 1000 miles and i've had no power issues at all - but i don't run lots of accessories.
I need someone with yamaha docs who can look up the denso 100211-4930 alt.
 
I upgraded voluntarily (130K ago) for more reliability, and to power high draw aux lights (PIAA 110s). Donated the 28amper parts to needy ST1100riders trying to keep theirs on the road. Others have also given their old, serviceable parts away.

John
 
John OoSTerhuis said:
Bingo! All the parts to the left of the shaft are common to both the 28 and 40 amp systems. Hence, if you're upgrading from the 28amper, transfer those parts to make up a complete 40amper's alt shaft assy.

edit: still wondering what are the amp/watt ratings of these adapted alternators. I'm not going to download one of the free online copies of the service manual to find out.

John
Click to expand...

Hi John, Im sorry if I implied that I was asking you to! I already have more than once and the best I can find is from the fzr service manual (1000) which says:

AC Generator
Model/manufacturer BG3 Nippon Denso
Nominal Output 12v 28A at 5000 rpm.

This is from https://www.scribd.com/doc/75458001/1-Yamaha-fzr1000-89-Service-Manual

The actual denso part no isnt given. It implies that its a 28Amper.
 
amackay99 said:
HI stbahn (sorry I don't know your name), Yes in principle it will work on the pre96 MY models fitted with the 28Amper. I not completely familiar with the 28a to 40a conversion process, but as i understand it, you remove the 28a alt along with the drive gear mechanism, then separate the mechanism from the alt and put the drive mechanism back in. Then fit the 40amp alt, and modify your wiring to remove the external rectifier and regulator. If that's right then yes the yam Denso part will fit once you've modified the lug hole sizes. BUT one caveat would be the the pre-96 MY engine may not have the 'unused' engine case lug that i found was fortuitously was in exactly the right place for me. Its not essential that its there but it makes it easier - otherwise you would have to fashion a steel strap and bolt one end to the alt and the other to the existing engine case lug hole. I'm due to post up some pic's anyway so take a look before your decide. I was lucky in the sense that I had a whole day of fun in the workshop to work out how to do it - and saving ?600 to motivate me. I got the hang of quickly inserting the alt, seeing where i need to file next, removing it, fiiling/measuring, and back in again - about 10 times at least i think. I'm thinking i need to make a cad/technical drawing to actually show how to modify it - its not easy to describe!, though if your a keen workshop/metalworker/mechanical engineer I'm sure it would be easy.

- al
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Thanks! I'm watching this thread with great interest! Not being "a keen workshop/metalworker/mechanical engineer" I'm tracking all of the responses to see what's best for me to do. Most likely I'll be doing the work myself, which will be a stretch (but hey, I wanted a project right?). While the cost factor is a major consideration, hopefully this is a onetime thing and I'm weighing the benefits of having the 40a or (apparently) another 28a with the Yam Denso Part (which hasn't been a problem for me as I don't use much in the way of accessory electrics). I was just ready to order the 40a parts when this option appeared. It now appears I won't be able to get anything done until September (traveling) so I'm very happy about the informative discussion that is taking place. Thanks to all that are contributing! - STeve
 
stbahn said:
or (apparently) another 28a with the Yam Denso Part (which hasn't been a problem for me as I don't use much in the way of accessory electrics). I was just ready to order the 40a parts when this option appeared. It now appears I won't be able to get anything done until September (traveling) so I'm very happy about the informative discussion that is taking place. Thanks to all that are contributing! - STeve
Click to expand...

Yes I was the same, in that after I got my 40amper out, found the open-circuit rotor windings (and wasnt able to find a local repairer), priced second hand ones, and a new one, I wasn't confident a reconditioned or second-hand one would last long, but also had to buy new silencers (?250 I think), and new battery and front tyre..... so Investing just ?30 (compared to ?600) for a yam denso seemed a minimal outlay to at least to try it. I'm running an LED strip front running light, and LED indicators which are in parallel to the normal bulbs (ie as well as the ordinary indicators). Theres a voltmeter on the dash so I can at least monitor the charging and so far - including a little night riding with those double headlamp bulbs - it's okay.
Good luck with whichever method you choose.!

edit: im running heated grips as well - I forgot about them - they came with the bike (ditto the LEDs)
 
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FYI: Pic of me holding the the yam denso alt connectors (left) and the honda bike connections they need to marry up to (right).
Note: This is for the wiring with regard to post-96 40a alt equipped bikes.
The yam denso has a red (+12v power from alt to battery (via fuse etc), and orange (sense voltage from the battery to alt, the honda has white push on connector).
I soldered spades and spade sockets to make the connection. Any form of weather resistant and detachable connection would do though - provided it can handle the current. Ive still got the standard 55a alternator fuse - so use a connection a method that can handle more than your main charging fuse rating.



DSC03944B.jpg
 
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Would you mind posting details of the wiring conversion? What year is your ST1100? Were you able to install this without having to take it apart or remove the engine? I lost all summer of riding removing mine and installing a rebuild and it also doesn't work, plus reads grounded on all leads (oil leaking in, I think). Very interested in this conversion and found one in Germany for $80. Many thanks, Eric
 
Hi, Ive got an 2003 Y model. It came with a 40a alt. There was no wiring conversion as such - just connect the yam denso to the existing loom alt wiring - see reply #37 earlier.
Black rubber booted cable on honda loom that bolts to the std alt is attached to the red wire of the yam denso part.
Black (or green/black possibly) white 2 pin connector wire on honda loom which normally plugs in to std alt goes to the orange wire of the yam denso part.
As when fitting the honda alt you can fit the yam denso without removing the engine. Not sure what 'plus reads grounded on all leads (oil leaking in, I think)' is referring to.

edit: can you expand slightly? exactly how were the measurements made?


If you have a pre-96 28a oil cooled alt fitted then the conversion process is a bit more convoluted but here's plenty of threads on this forum to help guide you - basically look at the
28a to 40a wiring conversion process, but make the final connection to the yam alt as above.
 
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PS! There's an inline fuse for the sense voltage from battery to alt (30A) - its the one that's not in the fuse box but sits next to the starter relay/or coil. If this is blown it stops the alt working - you have checked that it ok? Just asking because i've heard of people replacing alts only to find the 'new' one doesn't work......

also, are you based in the US? Germany's a long way away for a 100211-4930 part - i've noticed that, at least on ebay, german sellers are very good at putting the part number in to the ad - whereas UK sellers give the bike details it came from and the yamaha part number. You could search for FZR1000 alts , or FJ1100/1200 parts and message the seller to get the part number that's written on the silver label on the alt - then you might find one a lot nearer.....


- al
 
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