brakes spongy even after bleed

formerhondaman

Joined
Jun 10, 2015
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27
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KENT
I have recently aquired a 1998 st1100 abs/tcs 30k miles, part service history, that equates to almost none :)

The brakes are less than effective and display what I would consider typical symptoms of air or moisture in the system. The front brake is very spongy and does not really stop the bike in any hurry no matter how hard you squeeze and the rear is almost non existent. I have looked through previous posts but cant find anything relevant

I have bled the brakes twice now with an assistant in the old fashioned way, ie nipple open and close squeeze brakes on of in correct nipple order etc . The fr:)nt brake has improved marginally but is still not what I would expect and the rear is no better, I really struggle to filter and do slow riding without back brake and 100 miles each way on m25 means alot of slow or filter riding.

I also have a flashing ABS, I suspect the abs light is just that something on that is not working ie brakes should be working but just without the abs function.

Can Someone point me in the direction of what might be causing the spongy feeling, particularly to the rear. The front I could probably live with as i have a good grip but it less than ideal.

the bikes history is very little/poor and it has only covered 3k in the last 4-5 years, this may or may not have a bearing as it has been stood?

. I will strip and clean Calipers and pistons this weekend but on inspection on the bike, they appear relatively clean. Any suggestions welcomed on what is the likely cause.

I use the bike daily for my commute and am hoping in time to bring this one up to the standard it should be starting with the brakes

swing arm to follow in a few weeks, but that subject to cost might just be replace with new, one thing at a time brakes first:D
 
A '98 has the CBS which requires specific order and sequence of bleeding... also at points like modulators and PCV's... in all quite different to the "old fashioned way" on a standard model...

I'd suggest to get a workshop manual and familiarize with the procedure of flushing and bleeding the ABS-II/CBS...

I think a vacuum device be helpful, and having lots of new brake fluid, IIRC like 3~4 bottles...
 
One spot the air likes to hang out is at the banjo fitting right at the master cylinder. Turn the handle bars to place the banjo fitting in the lowest position in relationship to the master cylinder... pump the lever and tap on the banjo fitting with the handle of a screwdriver or other relatively soft object and see if you can free the errant bubble.
 
vinny said:
One spot the air likes to hang out is at the banjo fitting right at the master cylinder. Turn the handle bars to place the banjo fitting in the lowest position in relationship to the master cylinder... pump the lever and tap on the banjo fitting with the handle of a screwdriver or other relatively soft object and see if you can free the errant bubble.
Click to expand...

And if that doesn't clear the bubble out, position the bars so the banjo bolt is higher and crack the bolt while squeezing the lever. The trapped air will be released past the bolt/washer. BTDT

Protect the paint and Tupperware of course.

John
via iPhone 6
 
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ST1100Y said:
A '98 has the CBS which requires specific order and sequence of bleeding... also at points like modulators and PCV's... in all quite different to the "old fashioned way" on a standard model...

I'd suggest to get a workshop manual and familiarize with the procedure of flushing and bleeding the ABS-II/CBS...

I think a vacuum device be helpful, and having lots of new brake fluid, IIRC like 3~4 bottles...
Click to expand...

I also have a problem with the brakes even after spongy bleed. I read Service manual for my bike (1999 CBS ABS), but nowhere does it say about modulators and PCV's. Could you help me find it?
 
Thanks for all the suggestions, I will look into air behind the banjo and do a service at the caliper end this should eliminate a lot of the possibilities. if there is no improvement I will look to start servicing the seals, although never done this before argh.

I note the comment that if one piston is stuck it will reduce braking and feel soft at the lever, well that's pretty much where I'm at.
Thanks guys there are a few things to go at this weekend so I will report back with a more detailed description after I have had things apart.

hopefully its just a dirty sticky something???????
 
quick update, turns out that there is a bit more of a fundamental problem, the bracket that holds the caliper on had broken/fractured. I have purchased a pair of replacement abs calipers from America so ill be on the bird until they arrive.
I hope I am correct in saying the ABS2 are the correct ones for a 98 model? maybe someone could confirm that

I also happened to notice worn and scratched stancions and a leaky seal when i was in there looking at brakes so the forks will be coming off and getting stripped recromed and bottoms powder coated with new seals. then i'll start at the back end. im hoping it will give me some trouble free serious miles when I get it up to scratch.

Also ha
 
The bike is a new purchase to me, so I am finding and undoing all that the previous owner has done!! Bit off topic but it seemed logical, as the mount had been broken, to look closer at critical safety components of the bike, I have looked and forks need an overhaul, I think mr last owner used a screwdriver to install new seals that leak and in doing so played Zoro on the chrome, thanks! also tried removing rear abs sensor for code 2 fault and the bracket has sheared away from the body of the sensor, new sensor on order but I've got to drill the old one out, new to this bike but assuming that's the best way forward.

So with a front brake caliper change rear brake strip and overhaul needed, front fork overhaul needed, drilling out bits of ABS sensor needed I am going to just assume that the swing arm is knackered so I'll remove that get it shot blasted and power coated, and guess ill rub down the diff assembly and paint that in hammerite at the same time as I will be off.

As the front and back ends are coming off before I put it being the commuting workhorse for obvious self preservation and safety reasons and just wondering if I go the whole hog and change the rear shock?the one fitted is original 17 years old on 32k miles
Is there anything else that might need doing on my new money pit, BTW wife's dead chuffed with the new acquisition of my reliable new commuting steed??????

On the positive side at least when I get all bits sorted I know it will be safe, and hopefully reliable. if you guys have any input it will be gratefully received. selling it on is not an option as I have a conscience so need to work through it.
 
Sounds like you have a bit of a project bike there. My only suggestion would be to see if you can borrow a vacuum bleeder for the brake system. It makes this job go so much faster - and you certainly have enough to do on the bike. From what you've said, it appears the bike is finally in good hands. Good luck!

You used a few terms I'm not familiar with, care to provide a translation?
"be on the bird until they arrive"
What is 'hammerite'?
" wife's dead chuffed with....." = I assume she is, ahhhhhh upset?
 
jfheath said:
That rear sensor is impossible to get out if it has corroded.
Click to expand...
This dreaded problem roots in the fact that they all neglect the obvious before removing the wheels: remove the wheel-sensors first!!!
Taken out frequently neither the sensor body, nor the bolts would have corroded into the bores (even less if a slight smear of anti-seize or copper slip would have been applied); and the next issue is that they then always burst the sensor ring right into the lens/tip when handling/installing the wheels... :mad:

I found a perfectly made, reasonable priced swing-arm tool at eBay.uk:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honda-Tool-...rm-Socket-swinging-arm-swingarm-/111337848662
Seller is a great guy, really reliable (first parcel got lost, he instantly provided replacement shipment FOC, yet even refunded overpayment on P&P...)
 
SMSW said:
Sounds like you have a bit of a project bike there. My only suggestion would be to see if you can borrow a vacuum bleeder for the brake system. It makes this job go so much faster - and you certainly have enough to do on the bike. From what you've said, it appears the bike is finally in good hands. Good luck!

You used a few terms I'm not familiar with, care to provide a translation?
"be on the bird until they arrive" Ill be using my cbr 1100 xx blackbird AKA 'the bird'
What is 'hammerite'? Heat resistant metal paint
" wife's dead chuffed with....." = I assume she is, ahhhhhh upset? in a word shes unimpressed ( sarcastic humour )
Click to expand...

jfheath
thanks for all the info, steep learning curve and im at the bottom. I have to get it turned round quick as Im reluctant to put too many miles on the bird as she in mint condition, self serviced of course. I will refer to the link thanks. Be back in a week or so with updates. agree on the regular removal of sensors, came from an fjr and they have a sensor that seals itself in unless you remove clean grease and refit, takes 3 minutes on a slow day!!! as I say have two new sensors coming so i can sort.

interesting what you say on code 2 fault will have to look into it some more hopefully just a fuse, my favourite fault to fix lol ( sarcastic humour, they are nice and easy so do actually like them)

For my ease I will keep this thread going on the progress as the bikes history and story are here, unless of course thats against any virtual world rules???'
thanks
 
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OKAY I have started taking some bits of and out starting with i suppose you could say the front end!!!! Im determined to get this back up to my standard of service see attached photo 20150627_145337_resized_1.jpg20150627_145325_resized_1.jpg
 
starting new thread I have some grievance to get off my chest!!!!!!

Just to closed this out, and you wont believe this but the reason my brakes were seriously under performing is that the previous owner had two different lengths of fork fitted which meant that the wheel was running out of plumb which meant only the top of the pad one side was touching and the bottom of the opposite side. unbelievable, you could not make this stuff up, that's the tip of the ice berg, I stripped the forks as part of my getting it up to my standard before i knew they were different lengths and there are bits missing from inside, the seals were upside down in one, both fork bodies had been gorged were he had removed the seals with a screw driver so they are knackered, there was dirt in the bottom of one fork and i mean dirt? why should I be surprised he fitted two different length forks to the bike Seriously wow.

so now on the hunt for forks if anyone knows of any, abs/cbs 98 model st AW.

Thanks guys for previous input, I still cant believe it!!!!!!!!
 
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ST1100Y said:
... I'd suggest to get a workshop manual and familiarize with the procedure of flushing and bleeding the ABS-II/CBS...
Click to expand...
popinjay said:
... I read Service manual for my bike (1999 CBS ABS), but nowhere does it say about modulators and PCV's. Could you help me find it?
Click to expand...

There are at least three ST1100 service manuals; the Honda one is online. (Just make sure your manuals are 1996 or later.)

So I agree with ST1100Y. Simply multiply his advice times three.

(But I've never owned one of these LBS/CBS equipped STs.)
 
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I managed to brake BLEED. I pressed the brake master cylinder to the caliper, then it was not a problem.
 
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