I took this photo of the page in the owners manual page 57. Hope that helps.
Engine noise under load - is it normal?
- Thread starter Helitronix
- Start date
I took this photo of the page in the owners manual page 57. Hope that helps.
Thank you. I did not read the Owners Manual that well. I am much more familiar with the Service Manual.
I took this photo of the page in the owners manual page 57. Hope that helps.
Does your engine noise go away when shifting according to the Owners Manual?
If I shift according to the manual, then I get the pings I reported in the original post when the engine is undergoing more load (two people plus going up a hill for example).
Shifting later absolutely got rid of that problem.
However, if I shifted later, this lets the engine run in the 4000+ range (say 4000 to 6000) then I get the high frequency foot peg vibration instead.
If I take the manual at face value, then my original shifting points are right on. But clearly they don't work as well as shifting much higher.
Joel
Shifting later absolutely got rid of that problem.
However, if I shifted later, this lets the engine run in the 4000+ range (say 4000 to 6000) then I get the high frequency foot peg vibration instead.
If I take the manual at face value, then my original shifting points are right on. But clearly they don't work as well as shifting much higher.
Joel
I wouldn't worry about the ones under the tupperware....mostly if somebody added some stuff using mounting bolts....like crash bars, different foot pegs.....on another note, have you run several tanks of SeaFoam through it? How long have you had it and how long did it sit at the dealer? Could just be crudded up............might be worth it to put new plugs in.....they're probably original and 8 years old.............good luck...keep us posted..................ff.....BTW, the easiest way to adjust the counterbalancer is just put it halfway between the whine and the rattle....sounds odd, but you'll hear what I mean........................
It's had one tank of fuel with seafoam added. It's on it's second tank with seafoam.
I have had the bike since October 2013, and it appears to have been at the Honda dealer for 6 months based on what I gathered from the original title paperwork.
There are no crash bars or replacement foot pegs. It's all stock with the exception of the GPS I added this spring. It's so stock that even the brake fluid is original. Hahah. That at least will be remedied in a few days when my supplies arrive.
How much seafoam do you think I should be adding to a full tank? More than the 1oz per gallon?
Joel
I have had the bike since October 2013, and it appears to have been at the Honda dealer for 6 months based on what I gathered from the original title paperwork.
There are no crash bars or replacement foot pegs. It's all stock with the exception of the GPS I added this spring. It's so stock that even the brake fluid is original. Hahah. That at least will be remedied in a few days when my supplies arrive.
How much seafoam do you think I should be adding to a full tank? More than the 1oz per gallon?
Joel
:shock:
I took this photo of the page in the owners manual page 57. Hope that helps.
Holy crap!
That's not even close to my shift speeds.
I like to keep it under 4k for economy, but not that far under.
At ~55kph I'm in 3rd with the engine around 3,000 rpm, I can accelerate OK from there but if I was in 5th like the manual is suggesting?
I guess this WOULD give you good fuel economy, but damn - some of us like to have SOME acceleration when we wind on the throttle!
I'll throw in my 2? ($1?) here.
'08 w/ABS. 25k miles. Came to ST13 last Aug after years with GL1200 and then a GL1500 - talk about different! GLs have tractor engines - pull from <1K rpm.
I run 91 oct NON-ethanol gas (highest octane you can get short of AvGas at this altitude ~5000 ft. This also cause about 15% HP drop compared to sea level :-(). The "pure" gas at 91 oct gives me no indication of predetonation knock at hard acceleration above 2500 rpm. I'm 188, and about 206 with all gear on. Wife is probably(??) about 155-160 with gear, as point of reference.
With that...
Following info is for solo riding. Two-up riding - take the following numbers for shift rpms and add 500 or so.
~~~
I tend to be fairly conservative during most riding, and almost 100% conservative/economy minded around town (twist the grip a good one and you're at 40 in 1st in about 1? sec - speed limit 25.)
I don't watch it anymore (go by feel/sound) but I'd say my upshifts are typically in the 2500 rpm range, but this is with GENTLE acceleration. Running around 25 mph (true spd) on surface streets is 2300 or so in 3rd, touch under 2k in fourth, but this is just maintaining speed, not accelerating. You definitely will get that "chuggle" / "box of rocks shaking" sound from the engine (don't think it is actual pre-det knocking - not distinct enough) if you give it much twist below 2k or so.
I have found (based on instantaneous mpg readout) you want to stay over 2k for optimal economy. Below that and the torque isn't there and it is really sucking the fuel. At the lower speeds, I would always choose to cruise >2k, and best economy seems to come about 2500 (excepting big headwinds, etc.). That equates to 3rd gear to 25-30ish, 4th gear to 30 - 40ish, and 5th above 40 (for cruising or very gentle acceleration).
As others mentioned the torque curve starts ramping up a bit past 3k and pulls real hard in that 4500 - 6000 range. If you need to get the "heck outta Dodge" the tach pointer better be in between those numbers on the dial. Holding shift past ~6K will not gain you any more acceleration (just more velocity), and the upshift will still put you into the upper 4000s which is still within the peak torque plateau.
My experience in running around town (not "racing") - 2nd gear is best for cornering and speed changes above ~10 mph. The throttle response is pretty choppy above those speeds in 1st (FI shutting off and on, engine braking, and FI surge when rolling on. Taller gear uses the bikes mass to dampen the response to those engine responses. My experience anyway.
I'll typically touch 4K before shift on interstate on ramps 30 to 75-80 (true speed , my speedo is 9% fast) in short order - some ramps around here are either pretty short or significantly uphill.
My bike is turning ~4150 (if I recall right) at 75 mph true (84 indicated) in 5th. I'll run that continuous all day without a worry in the world. The engine loves highway cruising in that 4k range. I notice very little vibes at that speed/rev. Not as smooth as the Wing-Tractor at 3500(?) at 75, but not at all bothersome.
Probably a bunch of restatement of others feedback, but hope it is of some guidance. I read all the previous posts to the thread, and I would say you probably don't have to be as aggressive as the average suggestion, but you're probably rolling around in the mud where you were trying to operate. The revs will only hurt your fuel economy. Staying south of extended cruise above 7000-7500, do regular service, and you will not hurt the engine. Shorten your service interval some if you routinely cruise above 5500 or so would be my suggestion.
Regards,
'08 w/ABS. 25k miles. Came to ST13 last Aug after years with GL1200 and then a GL1500 - talk about different! GLs have tractor engines - pull from <1K rpm.
I run 91 oct NON-ethanol gas (highest octane you can get short of AvGas at this altitude ~5000 ft. This also cause about 15% HP drop compared to sea level :-(). The "pure" gas at 91 oct gives me no indication of predetonation knock at hard acceleration above 2500 rpm. I'm 188, and about 206 with all gear on. Wife is probably(??) about 155-160 with gear, as point of reference.
With that...
Following info is for solo riding. Two-up riding - take the following numbers for shift rpms and add 500 or so.
~~~
I tend to be fairly conservative during most riding, and almost 100% conservative/economy minded around town (twist the grip a good one and you're at 40 in 1st in about 1? sec - speed limit 25.)
I don't watch it anymore (go by feel/sound) but I'd say my upshifts are typically in the 2500 rpm range, but this is with GENTLE acceleration. Running around 25 mph (true spd) on surface streets is 2300 or so in 3rd, touch under 2k in fourth, but this is just maintaining speed, not accelerating. You definitely will get that "chuggle" / "box of rocks shaking" sound from the engine (don't think it is actual pre-det knocking - not distinct enough) if you give it much twist below 2k or so.
I have found (based on instantaneous mpg readout) you want to stay over 2k for optimal economy. Below that and the torque isn't there and it is really sucking the fuel. At the lower speeds, I would always choose to cruise >2k, and best economy seems to come about 2500 (excepting big headwinds, etc.). That equates to 3rd gear to 25-30ish, 4th gear to 30 - 40ish, and 5th above 40 (for cruising or very gentle acceleration).
As others mentioned the torque curve starts ramping up a bit past 3k and pulls real hard in that 4500 - 6000 range. If you need to get the "heck outta Dodge" the tach pointer better be in between those numbers on the dial. Holding shift past ~6K will not gain you any more acceleration (just more velocity), and the upshift will still put you into the upper 4000s which is still within the peak torque plateau.
My experience in running around town (not "racing") - 2nd gear is best for cornering and speed changes above ~10 mph. The throttle response is pretty choppy above those speeds in 1st (FI shutting off and on, engine braking, and FI surge when rolling on. Taller gear uses the bikes mass to dampen the response to those engine responses. My experience anyway.
I'll typically touch 4K before shift on interstate on ramps 30 to 75-80 (true speed , my speedo is 9% fast) in short order - some ramps around here are either pretty short or significantly uphill.
My bike is turning ~4150 (if I recall right) at 75 mph true (84 indicated) in 5th. I'll run that continuous all day without a worry in the world. The engine loves highway cruising in that 4k range. I notice very little vibes at that speed/rev. Not as smooth as the Wing-Tractor at 3500(?) at 75, but not at all bothersome.
Probably a bunch of restatement of others feedback, but hope it is of some guidance. I read all the previous posts to the thread, and I would say you probably don't have to be as aggressive as the average suggestion, but you're probably rolling around in the mud where you were trying to operate. The revs will only hurt your fuel economy. Staying south of extended cruise above 7000-7500, do regular service, and you will not hurt the engine. Shorten your service interval some if you routinely cruise above 5500 or so would be my suggestion.
Regards,
Blrfl
Natural Rider Enhancement
I pour in half of a 16-ounce can, which is a bit above the ounce-per-gallon mark. You've probably noticed that the engine has a little more oomph when that stuff is mixed in.
--Mark
+1 half a can............I'd still replace those plugs.....never know what's been run in it before you got it........and yeah, you're long overdue on the brake/clutch fluid replacement.....wouldn't hurt to take a peak at the air filter too............have fun.............good luck.........it'll get sorted out.......great bikes...........ff
Just looked at Honda's recommended shift points.....what a joke......must be for hypermilers..........my bike would probably stall if I had to hammer it wide open in 5th at 30 mph...........it'll do a hundred in 3rd...........putting might work on level ground, with no load , but be prepared to downshift about 3 gears if you need to...........you'll figure it out....we all do...............ff
I performed the counterbalance adjustment today but didn't get an opportunity to give it a test ride. I did give the throttle a twist up to 5k for a brief instant to feel the vibration levels. It is hard to say if it was an improvement or not. The accelerometer I was going to use tops out at a frequency corresponding to only 3000 RPM so that wasn't going to help. I have a different one to use with a higher frequency range but I was impatient and wanted to do the adjustment rather than access and prep the tool.
Once I test ride it I'll see if I can detect any change by feel. And if not, I may go back to get the tool and actually measure it before and after another round of adjustments.
Joel
Once I test ride it I'll see if I can detect any change by feel. And if not, I may go back to get the tool and actually measure it before and after another round of adjustments.
Joel
The ratting-pinking sound on my 1300 happens in all gears under acceleration much more pronounced two up and from a standing start sounds nasty pulling away, it seems to be coming from the right hand side of the engine towards the back of the engine, its only done 10k miles, I have adjusted the counterbalances but made no difference, spoke to the main Honda dealer but they don't want to know they say they wont even book it in because the mileage is so low it shouldn't need anything touching yet.... the noise certainly puts me off riding it but no vibrations or lack of performance are noticeable.
ST1100Y
Site Supporter
Quite a negligent statement, as just during the beginning of the service life parts break/settle in...
I'd always kept my schedule of 1000km/600m (visual/audio inspection, replace oil-filter, swap to full synth), 6000km/3700m and 12.000km/7500m services, from that on every 12Tkm/7,5Kmiles...
Blrfl
Natural Rider Enhancement
I spent a good chunk of time in the saddle yesterday and took note of where the vibes are. The bottom line is that it sounds like your bike is just fine. 4,000 RPM is where it becomes noticeable. My counterbalancers haven't been adjusted in a few years, but I don't have any reason to believe they're out of kilter.
If your expectation is that the experience on a motorcycle is going to be as smooth and quiet as your car, that's not realistic. Cars are designed with a tremendous amount of isolation between the engine and the interior that damp the vibrations and attenuate a lot of the noise. If you could have your head under the hood of most cars while under load, I think you'd be thoroughly freaked out about what goes on under there.
Motorcycles aren't designed that way. The engine in the 1300 is a stressed member of the frame, which means those parts are bolted directly together. The spars that hold the foot pegs are bolted directly to the frame, leaving whatever you're wearing on your feet and the little rubber pads on the pegs as the only isolation. Considering that you're in near-direct contact with an engine that's firing a cylinder 264 times every second at 4,000 RPM, Honda did well with this one.
Good as it is, the ST is a lousy first bike because new riders don't have any points for comparison beyond the 125s and 250s used in most training courses and don't realize how refined a motorcycle it is. Next month will be ten years I've had my ST, and it's spoiled me rotten for all but a few other bikes. My last bike was a Kawasaki Vulcan 750, which had a really good mill in it (counterbalanced, rubber-mounted, water-cooled, eight-valve, four-plug, dual-carb, 750cc V-twin) and I still wouldn't go back to one. If you can swing it, see if you can find a few other bikes of comparable displacement to ride for comparison. I'd recommend one with an inline four and one with a V-twin.
--Mark
If your expectation is that the experience on a motorcycle is going to be as smooth and quiet as your car, that's not realistic. Cars are designed with a tremendous amount of isolation between the engine and the interior that damp the vibrations and attenuate a lot of the noise. If you could have your head under the hood of most cars while under load, I think you'd be thoroughly freaked out about what goes on under there.
Motorcycles aren't designed that way. The engine in the 1300 is a stressed member of the frame, which means those parts are bolted directly together. The spars that hold the foot pegs are bolted directly to the frame, leaving whatever you're wearing on your feet and the little rubber pads on the pegs as the only isolation. Considering that you're in near-direct contact with an engine that's firing a cylinder 264 times every second at 4,000 RPM, Honda did well with this one.
Good as it is, the ST is a lousy first bike because new riders don't have any points for comparison beyond the 125s and 250s used in most training courses and don't realize how refined a motorcycle it is. Next month will be ten years I've had my ST, and it's spoiled me rotten for all but a few other bikes. My last bike was a Kawasaki Vulcan 750, which had a really good mill in it (counterbalanced, rubber-mounted, water-cooled, eight-valve, four-plug, dual-carb, 750cc V-twin) and I still wouldn't go back to one. If you can swing it, see if you can find a few other bikes of comparable displacement to ride for comparison. I'd recommend one with an inline four and one with a V-twin.
--Mark
I got to put a few miles on the ST today, the first since I made the counterbalance adjustment. I can't say that it made a hugely significant difference, but it does seem that the bike is equally smooth if not just a bit smoother. I'll take it!
I don't have enough experience with motorcycles to have built up any sort of valid expectation one way or the other with respect to general smoothness. I assumed they would vibrate since we're sitting on top of an engine. That's all good. My ST is generally quite smooth and feels solid and refined. What I wasn't expecting was a foot tingling vibration at normal operating RPM. I did sort of expect that it would be more comfortable than that, since some of us drive these ST's for hours at a time on the highway. If 4000RPM+ is a normal cruising RPM for the highway, then I would find that to be less comfortable than I wanted.
I haven't been on the highway with my ST yet. I've driven 500 miles on back-roads so far, so the ST really hasn't stretched its legs with me just yet.
At any rate, when I drove the ST this morning, I experimented with the upper RPM range again, and I didn't feel the same bone tingling vibration. But I didn't get to spend much time in that range either. The drive just didn't lend itself very well to that today. So more driving/playing/testing is required. At least, these sorts of tests are fun.
Thanks to everyone contributing to the thread. My ST appears to be perfectly fine, and it's owner is continuing to learn the ropes, thanks to all of you. Well, maybe not those of you who made fun of me shifting too early, but the REST of you.
Joel
I don't have enough experience with motorcycles to have built up any sort of valid expectation one way or the other with respect to general smoothness. I assumed they would vibrate since we're sitting on top of an engine. That's all good. My ST is generally quite smooth and feels solid and refined. What I wasn't expecting was a foot tingling vibration at normal operating RPM. I did sort of expect that it would be more comfortable than that, since some of us drive these ST's for hours at a time on the highway. If 4000RPM+ is a normal cruising RPM for the highway, then I would find that to be less comfortable than I wanted.
I haven't been on the highway with my ST yet. I've driven 500 miles on back-roads so far, so the ST really hasn't stretched its legs with me just yet.
At any rate, when I drove the ST this morning, I experimented with the upper RPM range again, and I didn't feel the same bone tingling vibration. But I didn't get to spend much time in that range either. The drive just didn't lend itself very well to that today. So more driving/playing/testing is required. At least, these sorts of tests are fun.
Thanks to everyone contributing to the thread. My ST appears to be perfectly fine, and it's owner is continuing to learn the ropes, thanks to all of you. Well, maybe not those of you who made fun of me shifting too early, but the REST of you.
Joel
Blrfl
Natural Rider Enhancement
Well, maybe not those of you who made fun of me shifting too early, but the REST of you.
Go out, ride it and have fun.--Mark
I have run regular gas for years without issue. Early on I installed one heat range colder plug, which I believe minimizes ping tendency. In hot weather I may hear some ping when suddenly cracking the throttle, but I either ease off or shift when this happens. It seems to me the knock sensors should prevent ping altogether, but at least on my bike, they don't. (I show no failure codes) If your bike loses power when pinging, ease up immediately or something is likely to get burned, such as a valve or piston. Check your spark plugs, if all else fails.
If 4000RPM+ is a normal cruising RPM for the highway, then I would find that to be less comfortable than I wanted.
I have over 700 hours on the highway on the st1300. You will get used to it. The st1300 is my first road bike purchased in 2008.
I have over 700 hours on the highway on the st1300. You will get used to it. The st1300 is my first road bike purchased in 2008.
Paul Drobny
MisterZoot
Its interesting ... I was a bit disoriented when I first starting riding mine. I don't remember thinking it about at speed or going uphill. I was mostly impressed at how silent the engine is compared to all the other bikes I'd had. But it always annoyed me how much quieter a Wing is. They'd pull up next at a light and I heard that whine, and wondered if it was ok. I like the idea of comparing with someone else, that should help put it in perspective.
I also had the thought that maybe your balancer isn't adjusted right. Igofar and I adjusted mine, and it made a big difference, though he warned me that especially at idle you may not get what I want ... this bike is definitely NOT a Wing!
Good luck,
I have a similar noise in mine, did you ever find out what this noise was caused by?Mine rattles like a diesel . I'm not too concerned about it . The bike runs fine . I've toyed with the idea of adjusted the crank shaft balancers but I believe it has more to do with my shift pattern . Like you , I can eliminate the noise by shifter at higher rpm . I read an article in some magazine one time that said " Bikes make all kinds of noises . Don't worry about it . Just go ride it . "