How Harley-Davidson Killed Itself by FortNine

Harley was never in trouble because Hondas were too cheap. So the fix was not a fix - it was a short-sided rah rah feel good measure.

Talking of Honda coming in under the tariff limit with good smaller bikes reminds me of something the president of Kawasaki said during an interview many years ago. Joan Claybrook (Jimmy Carter's safety clown who brought us 85 mph speedometers as a safety measure) went to Japan and told him that if they did not quit making such fast motorcycles, that she was going to slap a displacement limit on them. When the reviewer asked him what he thought of that he said that culturally, he didn't understand a woman talking like that to a man, but in practical terms, if they did so "Kawasaki will make a 125cc motorcycle that go like hell."
 
ddemair said:
Americans are accustomed to a higher standard of living and that includes the folks who build Harleys. That has a huge impact on the price of Harleys.
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I don’t wish to argue but actually, the Japanese (the J4 OEMs) as well as the Austrians (Rotax & KTM) and the Germans (BMW) have pretty high standards of living too.

The big difference is innovation and value produced for the money spent. These other nations have a long history of quality and agility in being able to develop new products in response to the evolution of the market.

Building the same thing over and over again and then crying foul when the market doesn’t buy it - is illogical.
 
ddemair said:
Built-in-America products are expensive because Americans are accustomed to a higher standard of living and that includes the folks who build Harleys.
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I think a better way to think of it is that Americans want all sorts of competition in what they buy (to keep prices down), but they want no competition at all in what they make (because they'd have to compromise their wages and benefits to remain competitive).
 
Let me throw in a + for Harley. They raise more money for charities than the rest of the brands put together. Toys for Tots. Local Christmas toy runs. Disabled Vet runs and on and on.

They do turn out for raising money and do a fine job.
 
Harleys can be hard to get into. They’re heavy, expensive, and their displacement seems insane.
Sure, they have smaller displacement bikes that are probably a better buy in terms of options than a Honda, but everyone knows that a “real” Harley is only the 1300cc+, blacked out bagger of some sort.
Don’t get me wrong, Hondas are “expensive” too, since they like to stiff you with no cruise control, only 5 gears, etc, but one can buy a used, sub $3,000 Japanese bike and ride it for years.

Harley clothes are top notch, as far as I can tell, and i don’t mean that as a dig. I genuinely like their leather and metal zipper quality.
 
I walked into a Harley dealer about 1978 wanting a road bike , after a ride from Chicago to Cincinnati , salesman sneered at my '71 Honda XL-250 and then ignored me as I looked at his Harleys . I walked out & haven't bought a Harley for 42 years now , with no future desires for one ….
 
scootac said:
Do you mean the company or the riders? I will agree if you mean the HD riders.
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That would be in the rider camp. Not sure if corporate gives much but they are pretty good at the taking part.

Thinking a little more on the Harley corporation they are a pretty much blinders on full speed ahead. Some of their competition like Honda has motorcycles, hunter, farmer, rancher side by sides, automobiles, and lawnmowers. Yamaha builds bikes, pianos, trumpets, bass guitars, sound equipment, and electronic widgets for industry. Kawasaki builds motorcycles, heavy equipment, ships. submarines, helicopters, robotics, and who knows what else.

Harley has motorcycles and Chinese leather jackets, boots, and sunglasses.

If Harley built a pickup with four doors would you buy it? Are they good enough to take on the F150?

How about sailing in the HD cruise ship? Titanic anyone?

All kidding aside when you have all your eggs in one basket and the hens quit laying eggs the basket starts to empty.
 
I'm a little younger than the average HD rider and I honestly don't have much interest. They have bikes that check a lot of the boxes for what I want in a bike, but for the price they seem too outdated to me. Indian makes the same style of bikes, but they seem so much more modern and the sales seem to reflect it. Harley seems committed to continuing to build bikes that retain a decades old image to please their customer base, while at the same time trying to appeal to younger buyers. That's a tough spot to be in.

I've seen younger riders refer to HD owners as cosplayers and, while not representative of a lot of HD riders I know, it does illustrate the image problem the company has.
 
Where I live in so Ohio, if I see 25 bikes in a day of riding, chances are 20 of them are Harleys, 1 might be a BMW AVD and the other 4 will be 600 supersports of some kind. It's not even close, HD's dominate here by a large margin. Rarely see a Ducati, a Moto Guzzi, a KTM, an Aprilia, an Indian, a Triumph or any Japanese bike that isn't a 600 supersort.

That said the next gen, the guys riding the 600 supersports are never going to ride a Harley. Harley's future looks bleak, but they should be able to sell as many bikes as the Euro brands by volume.

I had 6 Harley's over the years. Kept thinking the next one would be better, but it never was. I gave up on them in 1994.

I have more issues with the riders of the brand and the image they project (and the noise) than with the brand itself. I don't believe they put motorcycling in a favorable light. Then again, this is America and you don't have to put motorcycling in a favorable light if you don't want to, just like you don't have to wear safety gear if you don't want to.
 
the Ferret said:
Where I live in so Ohio, if I see 25 bikes in a day of riding, chances are 20 of them are Harleys, 1 might be a BMW AVD and the other 4 will be 600 supersports of some kind. It's not even close, HD's dominate here by a large margin. Rarely see a Ducati, a Moto Guzzi, a KTM, an Aprilia, an Indian, a Triumph or any Japanese bike that isn't a 600 supersort.
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Yup - here in Ontario, the ratio would be about like that....for now.

The data shows that HD sold a lotta bikes in the 1995-2010 timeframe and I’ll bet a lot of what you are seeing on the road today...are those bikes - not too many new ones. This is confirmed by HDs own sales data which shows the company new bike sales down 10-20% YOY for the last 5-8 years. That can only go on for so long....and it only ends one way.

Remember, the profits of a company that builds and sells motorcycles are based on sales of new bikes, not how many guys are riding old ones.

As for their gear and clothing - totally agree that it is top notch and In particular, their rain gear is absolutely excellent and worth the money IMO.

Pete
 
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It's a complex game isn't it, selling a "Premium Product", not only do you have to try and make money but you have to protect the brand at all costs.
Harley are now dipping their foot into other markets but it will devalue the brand in the eyes of many and then have to invest millions in EV's that probably few will buy. Plus any real return on this investment is years down the line if ever.
Then there is the perception (at least in Europe) that if you buy an HD you become a Harley person/couple, some pretentious arrogant prig who Lords it over all other lesser mortals and god forbid if you're seen aboard your steed without full merchandised apparel. Let's not forget that you are then only allowed to ride with like types and don't dare wave at other motorcyclists or Willie will take it back to the Good 'ol USA.
I've always liked the Road King and the Road Glide, can't even tell you why but at anything between £20,000 and £35,000 it would be an expensive ride. Then don't forget the uniform x 2.
They have a tough time ahead, maybe many premium brands will have similar problems post pandemic, you can bet your bottom dollar there's a Chinese company that would love the name, Norton anyone?
Harley is dead, long live Harley.
Upt'North.

When I say a Premium Product I mean a perceived Premium Product in the same way as VW, BMW, Ducati etc.
 
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Upt' North said:
Then there is the perception (at least in Europe) that if you buy an HD you become a Harley person/couple, some pretentious arrogant prig who Lords it over all other lesser mortals and god forbid if you're seen aboard your steed without full merchandised apparel. Let's not forget that you are then only allowed to ride with like types and don't dare wave at other motorcyclists or Willie will take it back to the Good 'ol USA.
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No difference over here. You is one or you ain't one. I'd have an FLHP (Road King Police) in my stable if I were not so averse to the association. I am an avid motorcyclist with no desire to be a "biker".
 
beemerphile said:
No difference over here. You is one or you ain't one. I'd have an FLHP (Road King Police) in my stable if I were not so averse to the association. I am an avid motorcyclist with no desire to be a "biker".
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Lee, when you're right, you're right.
Despite riding for over 40 years both for pleasure and work (if you an call it work) I have never likened myself to that term. It usually shows itself when in the company of those that know little of motorcycling and its intricacies.
Have we hit on why HD is dying (?), is the true biker culture dead and along with it the likely hood of someone actually buying an HD and riding it.
I don't frequent the HD culture that often, like almost never, but when I was last in Daytona for Motorcycle Racing Week (dodged a bullet there) many moons ago it was very obvious that these nasty, dirty bikers were overpaid solicitors and public servants who have nothing better to do with their time or money and act 'Bad Ass' for a week, or try too. They sort of gave themselves away drinking Chai Tea and discussing economics and those bikes weren't ridden there either. Not a bug in site.
The racing was good though.
Upt'North.
 
Ryan's videos are fantaSTic. His wry sense of humor is a bonus. He breaks things down into easy to underSTand segments. Easy enough for a Harley rider to underSTand. Harley can not ignore the writing on the wall and will get lean and mean. This video is getting a lot of traction and re-poSTs. So much so the used XR1200 prices have moved up a bit. I may not like the push-rod motor or aeSThetic. I do like an american manufacturer of motorcycles. it would be a shame if they went under. Remember the AMF days!!! I wonder what kind of ugly reply's Ryan is receiving. Props to him for sticking his neck out.
 
Agreed Matt: Ryan is a good guy and doesn’t pull any punches with any manufacturer. His reviews are fact based, backed by data and wickedly funny.

As for nastigrams from the web on his HD video - I doubt he cares....because he’s correct.
 
MaxPete said:
Agreed Matt: Ryan is a good guy and doesn’t pull any punches with any manufacturer. His reviews are fact based, backed by data and wickedly funny.

As for nastigrams from the web on his HD video - I doubt he cares....because he’s correct.
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This video is a boon for him. This will push his subscribers over a million.
 
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